Are values purely subjective?

[Dutch Uncle]

What terrorists, Dutch?
https://i.imgflip.com/7zvkh4.jpg

These terrorists, Matt: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/f...nd-threat-assessment-2024_508C_V6_13Sep23.pdf
Homeland Threat Assessment 2024
TERRORISM
In 2024, we expect the threat of violence from violent extremists radicalized in the United States
will remain high but largely unchanged from the threat as described in the May 2023 National
Threat Advisory System (NTAS) bulletin. Over the past year, both domestic violent extremists
(DVEs) and homegrown violent extremists (HVEs) inspired by foreign terrorist organizations have
engaged in violence in reaction to sociopolitical events. These actors will continue to be inspired
and motivated by a mix of conspiracy theories; personalized grievances; and enduring racial,
ethnic, religious, and anti-government ideologies, often shared online.

• Since January 2022, DVEs have conducted three fatal attacks in the Homeland resulting in 21
deaths and multiple non-lethal attacks. US law enforcement has disrupted over a half dozen
other DVE plots. During the same period, only one attack was conducted by an individual
inspired by a foreign terrorist organization. The individual—who is awaiting trial—was likely
inspired by a spiritual mentor of al-Qa‘ida and Taliban narratives and allegedly wounded three
New York City Police Department officers on New Year’s Eve.

• Collectively, these incidents focused on a variety of targets, including law enforcement,
government, faith-based organizations, retail locations, ethnic and religious minorities,
healthcare infrastructure, transportation, and the energy sector. The most lethal attack this
year occurred in May in Allen, Texas, where a now-deceased attacker killed eight people at
a shopping mall. The attacker was fixated on mass violence and held views consistent with
racially or ethnically motivated violent extremist (RMVE) and involuntary celibate violent
extremist ideologies, judging from his writings and online activities.

• While violent extremists likely will continue using accessible, easy-to-use weapons for attacks,
they also will leverage online platforms and encrypted communications applications to share
novel tactics and techniques. Collaboration among violent extremists online likely will grow
as they strive to spread their views, recruit followers, and inspire attacks. Some RMVEs have
improved the quality of their video and magazine publications online, which could help them
inspire more like-minded individuals to commit attacks.


Foreign terrorist groups like al-Qa‘ida and ISIS are seeking to rebuild overseas, and they maintain
worldwide networks of supporters that could seek to target the Homeland. Among state actors, we
expect Iran to remain the primary sponsor of terrorism and continue its efforts to advance plots
against individuals in the United States.

• Foreign terrorists continue to engage with supporters online to solicit funds, create and share
media, and encourage attacks while their affiliates in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East prioritize
local goals. Since the US withdrawal from Afghanistan, ISIS’s regional branch—ISIS‑Khorasan—
has garnered more prominence through a spate of high-casualty attacks overseas and
English‑language media releases that aim to globalize the group’s local grievances among
Western audiences. Individuals with terrorism connections are interested in using established
travel routes and permissive environments to facilitate access to the United States....

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You ain't got that, Dodo. You might would be cruel to someone, but you'd just be a stupid cruel idiot hurting other people for no reason.

I'm the type to stop that shit from happening.

There ya go again, Matt, proving you don't walk the walk:

"7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 7:1-3&version=KJV

 

[Cypress]

Might makes Right is Survival of the Fittest. It's the most natural law known to mankind. Rising above that requires something "special".

I never believed Richard Dawkins claim that all values and ethics are explainable by the laws of biological evolution.

Propagation of one's genes is the only goal of Darwinian evolution.

There is no evolutionary benefit to a dolphin when it saves a human from a shark attack.

There was no evolutionary benefit to the Dutch family who hid Ann Frank from the Nazis.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I never believed Richard Dawkins claim that all values and ethics are explainable by the laws of biological evolution.

Propagation of one's genes is the only goal of Darwinian evolution.

There is no evolutionary benefit to a dolphin when it saves a human from a shark attack.

There was no evolutionary benefit to the Dutch family who hid Ann Frank from the Nazis.

Dawkins likes to throw red meat to militant atheists to sell books. His speech at the 2012 "Reason Rally" wasn't reasonable, it was emotional.

https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2...s-unrepentant-for-harsh-words-targeting-faith
Interview: Richard Dawkins Celebrates Reason, Ridicules Faith

In my original post, I questioned whether Dawkins was the best choice to be headline speaker at the March 24 Reason Rally in Washington, given that one of its goals was to change negative stereotypes about atheists....

...Dawkins reiterated his well-known stance that evidence-based thinking is the only "respect-worthy" approach to the world. Unapologetic about his willingness to label as "ridiculous" beliefs rooted in faith rather than evidence, he came across as utterly confident in his ability to suss out courageous versus self-deluded ways of thinking.

In insisting that he does not insult people who believe in God, only their beliefs, Dawkins tries for a distinction I find problematic....

...Dawkins told me that if he insulted any person, he regrets it. But this example shows how hard it is, in practice rather than theory, to aim harsh language only at a person's belief, and not at the person.

Another example comes from Saturday's rally. There, Dawkins noted his incredulity when meeting people who believe a Communion wafer turns into the body of Christ during the Eucharist. He then urged his followers to "mock" and "ridicule" that. (He says this 13 minutes into the video, though it's best to watch the whole thing.) His exact words after describing the Catholic ritual, were "Mock them. Ridicule them." So by "them" did he intend to refer to Catholic beliefs, not Catholic people? In context, it doesn't seem so to me.

How much does that distinction matter? When it comes to religion, does demeaning a person's belief not also demean the person?...

 

[Cypress]

Dawkins likes to throw red meat to militant atheists to sell books. His speech at the 2012 "Reason Rally" wasn't reasonable, it was emotional.

https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2...s-unrepentant-for-harsh-words-targeting-faith
Interview: Richard Dawkins Celebrates Reason, Ridicules Faith

If your goal is to egg people on to mock and ridicule Catholic practice, you've moved far beyond your role as a public voice for science, in the way that Einstein and Niel Degrasse Tyson were.

 

[Cypress]

It is bizarre you think Homer was writing a treatise on ethics.

People have always learned about the values, norms, expectations of their culture through story and poem. Not by reading the academic treatise of a 19th century German university scholar.

It's a simple fact of history that the ancient Greeks looked upon the Homeric canon not as adventure stories. But as true history, and as a cultural touchstone for the values Greeks felt were most important.

Anyone who ever took a college level class on the Homeric epics can tell you that.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

If your goal is to egg people on to mock and ridicule Catholic practice, you've moved far beyond your role as a public voice for science, in the way that Einstein and Niel Degrasse Tyson were.

Agreed. Dawkins has repeatedly proved he's motivated by profit through entertainment; not reason, not science and not logic. Tyson's approach much more logical. The difference is noted here:

 

[Dutch Uncle]

It's a simple fact of history that the ancient Greeks looked upon the Homeric canon not as adventure stories. But as true history, and as a cultural touchstone for the values Greeks felt were most important.

Anyone who ever took a college level class on the Homeric epics can tell you that.

Did the Greeks reflect Homer or was Homer reflecting Greek culture? I completely agree that ancients, both East and West, felt Might Makes Right since that is a fundamental law of nature. Many human cultures have risen above that fundamental law. An example is your noting of the Dutch family, the Gies, that risked their lives to hide the Frank family. That is partly cultural and partly bravery on the part of the Gies.

Human history has far more examples of basic human animalistic behavior such as the Germans, most Dutch, Katrina aftermath, 1/6 and the atrocities being committed by Russians in Ukraine.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. Dawkins has repeatedly proved he's motivated by profit through entertainment; not reason, not science and not logic. Tyson's approach much more logical. The difference is noted here:

Good for Neil.

 

[Cypress]

Did the Greeks reflect Homer or was Homer reflecting Greek culture? I completely agree that ancients, both East and West, felt Might Makes Right since that is a fundamental law of nature. Many human cultures have risen above that fundamental law. An example is your noting of the Dutch family, the Gies, that risked their lives to hide the Frank family. That is partly cultural and partly bravery on the part of the Gies.

Human history has far more examples of basic human animalistic behavior such as the Germans, most Dutch, Katrina aftermath, 1/6 and the atrocities being committed by Russians in Ukraine.

Yes, the Homeric canon was a cultural reflection of the values and expectations of Greeks prior to the Athenian classical age held to be important: the maintainence of reputation, honor, courage. The entire god damn war on Troy was about maintaining reputation and answering insult with retribution.

I think an act of deliberate and concious free will can transcend our genetic disposition for self preservation, aka the Geis family.

Might makes right is so pervasive in human history that the argument that mercy, compassion, and empathy are just hard wired into our genetic code just doesn't hold water for me. I do think the conscience can be trained through free and deliberate reflection and introspection to exercise values that may not be neccessary for self preservation and the propagation of our genes

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Yes, the Homeric canon was a cultural reflection of the values and expectations of Greeks prior to the Athenian classical age held to be important: the maintainence of reputation, honor, courage. The entire god damn war on Troy was about maintaining reputation and answering insult with retribution.

I think an act of deliberate and concious free will can transcend our genetic disposition for self preservation, aka the Geis family.

Might makes right is so pervasive in human history that the argument that mercy, compassion, and empathy are just hard wired into our genetic code just doesn't hold water for me. I do think the conscience can be trained through free and deliberate reflection and introspection to exercise values that may not be neccessary for self preservation and the propagation of our genes

Bushido is a Japanese version of such common human culture codes. Same goes for other warrior societies be it the feudal knights or Plains Indians. In the past we've discussed how looking for common themes in religions of the world were the kernels of truth in them stripped of dogma. The same can be said of warrior codes around the world and through the human timeline.

https://www.thecollector.com/warrior-ethos-spartan-samurai-sioux/
Warrior Ethos: 3 Things Spartans, Samurai and Sioux Have In Common
Samurai, Sioux, and Spartan warriors all came from cultures with a strong warrior ethos. This ethos guided a warrior's approach to warfare and all aspects of his life.
Three Things That The Spartans, Samurai, And Sioux Warriors Have In Common
1. Honor And The Way Of Death
2. The Highest Duty is to the People
3. Spartan Warriors: “He Who Sweats More In Training Bleeds Less In War”

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Bushido
The precise content of the Bushidō code varied historically as the samurai class came under the influence of Zen Buddhist and Confucian thought, but its one unchanging ideal was martial spirit, including athletic and military skills as well as fearlessness toward the enemy in battle. Frugal living, kindness, honesty, and personal honour were also highly regarded, as was filial piety. However, the supreme obligation of the samurai was to his lord, even if this might cause suffering to his parents.


Notice the difference of 7 vs. 8 virtues. Seven is the most common in the modern world.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/char...ushido-code-the-eight-virtues-of-the-samurai/
The Bushido Code: The Eight Virtues of the Samurai

 

[Cypress]

Bushido is a Japanese version of such common human culture codes. Same goes for other warrior societies be it the feudal knights or Plains Indians. In the past we've discussed how looking for common themes in religions of the world were the kernels of truth in them stripped of dogma. The same can be said of warrior codes around the world and through the human timeline.

https://www.thecollector.com/warrior-ethos-spartan-samurai-sioux/
Warrior Ethos: 3 Things Spartans, Samurai and Sioux Have In Common
Samurai, Sioux, and Spartan warriors all came from cultures with a strong warrior ethos. This ethos guided a warrior's approach to warfare and all aspects of his life.
Three Things That The Spartans, Samurai, And Sioux Warriors Have In Common
1. Honor And The Way Of Death
2. The Highest Duty is to the People
3. Spartan Warriors: “He Who Sweats More In Training Bleeds Less In War”

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Bushido
The precise content of the Bushidō code varied historically as the samurai class came under the influence of Zen Buddhist and Confucian thought, but its one unchanging ideal was martial spirit, including athletic and military skills as well as fearlessness toward the enemy in battle. Frugal living, kindness, honesty, and personal honour were also highly regarded, as was filial piety. However, the supreme obligation of the samurai was to his lord, even if this might cause suffering to his parents.


Notice the difference of 7 vs. 8 virtues. Seven is the most common in the modern world.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/char...ushido-code-the-eight-virtues-of-the-samurai/
The Bushido Code: The Eight Virtues of the Samurai

Nice. Good points

The Bushido code was published in the 17th century

For the most part, honor, reputation, courage, wealth were the "good" values in the ancient world.

If you look at the extant literature from antiquity, pre Axiall age, there is almost no mention of empathy, compassion, mercy being an important cultural value, let alone a moral imperative. It's not in the Homeric canon, it's not in the epic of Gilgamesh, its not in the classical Vedas.

I've come around to thinking human values and ethics evolve, through the use of human free will and abstract reasoning. There wasn't just one set of ethics hard wired into our genetic code we have just carried around and acted on for two hundred thousand years.

 

[BidenPresident]

People have always learned about the values, norms, expectations of their culture through story and poem. Not by reading the academic treatise of a 19th century German university scholar.

It's a simple fact of history that the ancient Greeks looked upon the Homeric canon not as adventure stories. But as true history, and as a cultural touchstone for the values Greeks felt were most important.

Anyone who ever took a college level class on the Homeric epics can tell you that.

No one but you thinks that Homer is history.
And please stop pretending you went to college.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Nice. Good points

The Bushido code was published in the 17th century

For the most part, honor, reputation, courage, wealth were the "good" values in the ancient world.

If you look at the extant literature from antiquity, pre Axiall age, there is almost no mention of empathy, compassion, mercy being an important cultural value, let alone a moral imperative. It's not in the Homeric canon, it's not in the epic of Gilgamesh, its not in the classical Vedas.

I've come around to thinking human values and ethics evolve, through the use of human free will and abstract reasoning. There wasn't just one set of ethics hard wired into our genetic code we have just carried around and acted on for two hundred thousand years.

Agreed humans have evolved culturally and socially over the past several thousand years. When reading the link about warrior ethos and the common values of the Spartans, Sioux and Samurai, it struck me that the warrior ethos parallels religious values and beliefs. Both have a code that serves the larger group.

IMO, warrior codes predate religious codes. Older than the Axial Age itself. While shamans and witch doctors probably existed, they were very esoteric and secretive. Warrior codes would be much better known in the culture. As such, it's possible that religions based their structure upon such warrior codes due to many similarities.

Warrior ethos is defined by the U.S. Air Force Academy as the “embodiment of warrior spirit.” Ethos is a derivative of the same Greek word for ethics, and for the warrior comprises a code of conduct that guides his values and actions. It is often an oral code, passed down from one warrior to the next. Warrior ethos dictates not just how a warrior should behave towards his enemies, but also how he should relate to his people and overcome his own weaknesses. It is a philosophy that must balance the encouragement of active aggression with voluntary self-restraint. This tension lies at the core of warrior ethos.

 

[Cypress]

No one but you thinks that Homer is history.
And please stop pretending you went to college.

So you've never had a college level course on the Homeric epics.

The Greeks of the 6th century BC thought the Homeric epics were historical. I didn't say I did.

"Plato explicitly criticizes the ethical value system of Homeric society, which he thinks is alienated from the idea of Good."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/125...ty appears to belong to,from the idea of Good.


Why is Homer important ethically (in ancient Greece)?:
Xenophanes (580-480BC) wrote: "from the beginning everyone has learnt according to Homer"
Homer has: pre-eminent authority

Think of Homer as an ever-present subtext that permeates society: a sort of "default cultural norm"

https://www.uvm.edu/~jbailly/courses/homeric ethics.html

 

[BidenPresident]

So you've never had a college level course on the Homeric epics.

Ther Greeks if the 6th century BC thought the Homeric epics were historical. I didn't say I did.

You sound like that asshole Doc Dutch. All personal attacks.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed humans have evolved culturally and socially over the past several thousand years. When reading the link about warrior ethos and the common values of the Spartans, Sioux and Samurai, it struck me that the warrior ethos parallels religious values and beliefs. Both have a code that serves the larger group.

IMO, warrior codes predate religious codes. Older than the Axial Age itself. While shamans and witch doctors probably existed, they were very esoteric and secretive. Warrior codes would be much better known in the culture. As such, it's possible that religions based their structure upon such warrior codes due to many similarities.

I agree. The warrior code, the society built on reputation, courage, and wealth pre-date the Axial Age sages. The extant writing we still have from before the Axial Age doesn't look anything like Plato, Confucius, Zarathustra, Jesus, the Buddha.

 

[Matt Dillon]

Nice. Good points https://media.tenor.com/RQ4WtOOuesAAAAAC/nyan-cat-rainbow.gif

The Bushido code was published in the 17th century

For the most part, honor, reputation, courage, wealth were the "good" values in the ancient world.

If you look at the extant literature from antiquity, pre Axiall age, there is almost no mention of empathy, compassion, mercy being an important cultural value, let alone a moral imperative. It's not in the Homeric canon, it's not in the epic of Gilgamesh, its not in the classical Vedas.

I've come around to thinking human values and ethics evolve, through the use of human free will and abstract reasoning. There wasn't just one set of ethics hard wired into our genetic code we have just carried around and acted on for two hundred thousand years.

In the "Year of Our Lord" 1600-something?

Now I just know there's a set of 10 rules that predates that by 2000 years or so.

Hmm..

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I agree. The warrior code, the society built on reputation, courage, and wealth pre-date the Axial Age sages. The extant writing we still have from before the Axial Age doesn't look anything like Plato, Confucius, Zarathustra, Jesus, the Buddha.

It would be worth exploring how warrior codes helped build ancient civilizations.

BTW, I have some names which you might consider thread-banning to keep down the noise.

Alternatively, consider starting threads in the APP section.
https://www.justplainpolitics.com/forumdisplay.php?39-Above-Plain-Politics-Forum

They would have to refrain from posting if they can't be civil.

 

[BidenPresident]

I think Doc and Cypress are the same person. They write insults instead of debating.