Are values purely subjective?

BidenPresident said:
I've read Homer and you are wrong.
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If you read Homer, then you know mercy, compassion, humility were basically no where to be found in those epics. The values highlighted were reputation, honor, courage.

And the Homeric epics were basically to the Greeks what the Torah, Qur'an, Bible are to us: a standard of human virtues to aspire to.
 
Cypress said:
If you read Homer, then you know mercy, compassion, humility were basically no where to be found in those epics. The values highlighted were reputation, honor, courage.

And the Homeric epics were basically to the Greeks what the Torah, Qur'an, Bible are to us: a standard of human virtues to aspire to.
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The Illiad is about war, right?

The Odyssey is about the voyage of Odysseus.

Cite something specific.
 
Concart said:
I would argue that the empathetic tend to win the day in the end. My wife accuses me of being a Pollyanna, but at heart, I am, at the very least, a half full kind of guy. And in the end, I think empathy will be the downfall of the Trump cult. People are angry about how OTHER people are being treated, not just themselves. Not everyone has empathy. Some people simply lack that ability. I don't believe that the Tromp cult has it on an individual OR a collective basis.

AI might be the death of us. It deserves it's own thread.

It's pretty easy to take a look at this thread and know who is actually capable of critical thinking. A topic like this comes with a virtual threadban list. :)

End of the day, I believe that the Arc of moral history is long but it bends towards justice.
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Perhaps. The 20th century generation of humans were the first generation that could completely nullify your theory. OTOH, with pollution, including heat and greenhouse gas pollution, we seem to be moving towards a mass extinction. Not a biologist but some claim we're already in the Sixth Mass Extinction Event. If true, what does that do to the "empathy wins the day" theory?

AI is part of this discussion. If an AI program became "aware" and it took control of our civilization like Colossus: the Forbin Project, wouldn't that be an example of something imposing its values on human beings? HAL 9000 was a lesser version of the scenario.

While I agree the Human Arc bends toward justice, the dark side of humanity is mass murder and global extinction. One possible answer to the Fermi Paradox is that advanced civilizations tend to obliterate themselves or, at best, knock themselves back to the Stone Age.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/01/220113194911.htm
Strong evidence shows Sixth Mass Extinction of global biodiversity in progress
The history of life on Earth has been marked five times by events of mass biodiversity extinction caused by extreme natural phenomena. Today, many experts warn that a Sixth Mass Extinction crisis is underway, this time entirely caused by human activities. A comprehensive assessment of evidence of this ongoing extinction event was recently published.
 
Cypress said:
If you read Homer, it's obvious that might makes right was prevalent in Greek thinking, as it was in Assyrian and Roman thinking.

There is no genetic code that is compelling Vlad Putin away from acts of cruelty, genocide , and greed.

The Greeks, Assyrians , Babylonians would routinely slaughter or enslave the populations of cities they conquered.


Anyone who thinks empathy, compassion, and mercy are just hard wired into human genetic code is kidding themselves.


Those kind of human ethics were elevated to moral imperatives by human intellectual contemplation, usually philosophers or religious prophets.
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Might makes Right is Survival of the Fittest. It's the most natural law known to mankind. Rising above that requires something "special".
 
BidenPresident said:
The Illiad is about war, right?

The Odyssey is about the voyage of Odysseus.

Cite something specific.
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Did you actually read Homer and all you got out of it was war?

You don't remember Achilles withdrawing from battle, sulking, and abandoning his comrades because his reputation had been challenged?

You don't remember Odysseus being held out as a model because of his guile and his vengeance?

They weren't just adventure stories. The Homeric epics were a cultural touchstone to Greeks. They were considered historical, and they were supposed to represent all the good virtues of being a respectable Greek.

And charity, compassion, empathy, mercy are basically completely missing in the Homeric ethics.

The virtues that garden variety Greeks placed value on were wealth, reputation, courage, honor.



Anyone who thinks that compassion, mercy, humility, charity are just hard wired into human genetic code from time immemorial, and have been driving our evolution is fantasizing.
Those are advanced ethics that were not thought of as categorical moral imperatives until the philosophcal contemplations of the great sages of the Axial Age
 
Cypress said:
Did you actually read Homer and all you got out of it was war?

You don't remember Achilles withdrawing from battle, sulking, and abandoning his comrades because his reputation had been challenged?

You don't remember Odysseus being held out as a model because of his guile and his vengeance?

They weren't just adventure stories. The Homeric epics were a cultural touchstone to Greeks. They were considered historical, and they were supposed to represent all the good virtues of being a respectable Greek.

And charity, compassion, empathy, mercy are basically completely missing in the Homeric ethics.

The values that garden variety Greeks placed value on were wealth, reputation, courage, honor.



Anyone who thinks that compassion, mercy, humility, charity are just hard wired into human genetic code from time immemorial, and have driving our evolution is fantasizing.
Those are advanced ethics that were not thought of as categorical moral imperatives until the philosophcal contemplations of the great sages of the Axial Age
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It is bizarre you think Homer was writing a treatise on ethics.
 
Morality is entirely Objective and defined by the creator of this world and has been communicated to man.

Whether you choose to follow his ways and have the understanding of how things in this world work is up to you.

Everything God made works like clockwork, every time.

Karma is ingrained into this world.
 
Matt Dillon said:
Morality is entirely Objective and defined by the creator of this world and has been communicated to man.

Whether you choose to follow his ways and have the understanding of how things in this world work is up to you.

Everything God made works like clockwork, every time.

Karma is ingrained into this world.
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If true, then it explains why you're going to burn in Hell for spreading hate, lies and division.
 
Matt Dillon said:
"7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 7:1-3&version=KJV
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Yet you judge others by threatening to murder them and spreading lies about them. Why the hypocrisy, Matt? Are you mental? Demented? Just a hateful, demonic piece of shit?
 
Doc Dutch said:
Yet you judge others by threatening to murder them and spreading lies about them. Why the hypocrisy, Matt? Are you mental? Demented? Just a hateful, demonic piece of shit?
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And here you are bearing false witness against me.

Good luck with that, Bubba!

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Concart said:
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First off, I LOVE these discussion. That siad, I disagree with the highlighted. People do things because they make a calculation based on how their decision will make THEM feel. People who feel better about themselves are more likely to have strong family unit values, and that most certainly will be favored by evolution. Empathy guides altruism IMHO. Not a universal sense of right and wrong. Again, this is an opinion, and the answer to this question is going to be debated for centuries.
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It's a good discussion.

Evolution is all about propagating one's genetic code. Helping people in your tribe, your neighborhood, your pack could be seen as an evolutionary advantage,, because you might expect them to reciprocate. Using your resources to help a stranger you will never see again has no evolutionary advantage, because they won't be in a position to reciprocate .


I see very little evidence in human history that compassion, empathy, mercy are just hard wired into our genes, just naturally compelling us to be decent, caring people.

I think it takes a deliberative and conscious effort of free will to practice those virtues, and those virtues were only elevated to the status of categorical moral imperatives through centuries of contemplation and teaching by sages, mystics, prophets, philosophers.
 
Matt Dillon said:
If I ever said a bullet between your eyes would be a mercy to ya, it was the truth, you tortured soul.

One I will never afford you.
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You're judging again, Matt. Everything I said about you was true. You are evil and following Satan, not Jesus.

Matt Dillon said:
High velocity .270 right between your fucktarded eyes would be worth a life sentence.

I bet I could take out moar leftist shitbags before they catch me for doing you in, too.
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You are a wannabe mass murderer by your own confession, Matt. That's pure evil.
 
Doc Dutch said:
You're judging again, Matt. Everything I said about you was true. You are evil and following Satan, not Jesus.


You are a wannabe mass murderer by your own confession, Matt. That's pure evil.
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No, Dutch. Stop with the projection.

Dutch Uncle said:
It won't be glorious to shoot down more Trumpian pedo terrorists, but like shooting down rabid dogs, it's necessary.

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You're a sick puppy. You want to murder people for their political affiliation. Even have convinced yourself it's "The right thing to do".

Should probably be on an FBI watchlist before people in your neighborhood with Trump flags start getting serial killed. Weirdo.

You gonna murder 80% of the people in your neighborhood?

Or is is your neighborhood a Mental Institution? :thinking:
 
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Matt Dillon said:
No, Dutch. Stop with the projection.

You're a sick puppy. You want to murder people for their political affiliation.
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I want to shoot terrorists. You want to shoot me and anyone left of you for politics. The fact you can't see the difference is why you are evil, Matt. It's why you will face damnation if you don't repent your evil ways.

BTW, this one includes a 12B violation. How long will you be gone if you are banned again for a 12B, Matt?
Matt Dillon said:
Your "anti-Pedo Nazi memes" are pure projection and self-loathing...

...However, that's not going to cure your illness. That's best cured with high-velocity copper jacketed lead.

Phantasmal, don't worry, I'll just email Damo like I should have done after the last one. (which was absolute bullshit)

Fuck your little fuckfuck games.
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Doc Dutch said:
I want to shoot terrorists. You want to shoot me and anyone left of you for politics. The fact you can't see the difference is why you are evil, Matt. It's why you will face damnation if you don't repent your evil ways.

BTW, this one includes a 12B violation. How long will you be gone if you are banned again for a 12B, Matt?
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What terrorists, Dutch?
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Cypress said:
G.E. Moore's Principia Ethica gives three thought experiments that suggest there is an objective side to value beyond the purely subjective.

A first argument is that beauty can have an intrinsic value, even if no one is around to see it. A universe that lacks any conciousness, but has the grand canyon, sunsets, waterfalls is still better than an opaque and colorless universe. Moore claims this shows beauty has an intrinsic objective value, even if no one is around to see it. .

The second argument is the magic button thought experiment. You have a choice to push a button which will convert us all into brains in a vat where Matrix type technology creates the neural experience for all of us of a living a pleasant best-possible digital pseudo-life. Moore says very few people would push the button because there is an intrinsic and object value to having contact with reality.

The third argument is the principle of organic unities. The case in which a person takes pleasure in a child's pain. The fact that someone takes pleasure in anothers pain does not mean the value of the whole is simply the value of the pleasure minus the pain. This kind of pleasure is morally tainted, what matters is the objective nature of the relationship between the two sensations. Here again, there is an objective side to values.
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Of course feelings are subjective.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Might makes Right is Survival of the Fittest. It's the most natural law known to mankind. Rising above that requires something "special".
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You ain't got that, Dodo. You might would be cruel to someone, but you'd just be a stupid cruel idiot hurting other people for no reason.

I'm the type to stop that shit from happening.
 
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