Yep, they still need that virgin thing.
At What Point?
- Thread starter domer76
- Start date
Why do you so obviously try to rile him...and instigate the kinds of responses you pretend to be trying to thwart?
Why?
He's a troll. All there is to it.
Mark, the earliest gospel and the one closest in time to the life of Jesus, would presumably be best positioned to be the most representative of the oral traditions concerning Jesus circulating in the 30s, 40s and 50s AD .
I don't remember Mark ever mentioning a miraculous conception. That seems like a huge and important detail for Mark to just casually ignore.
Paul, who is our earliest extant Christian writer curiously doesn't mention this detail either
Neither Mark nor Paul, who are our earliest extant Christian writers, mention anything about a miraculous conception and virgin birth.
That seems like an extraordinary detail for Mark and Paul to just casually ignore.
My response notifications are monopolized and liberally peppered with responses from this poster.
Mason 22
Verified User
That doesn't relate to creating the complex physical universe!
Firstly you are wrong, Matthew was a disciple, I'll quote the verse below. (When Buddhists teach folks about Christianity they are thorough).
Secondly, none of this changes what I said, "aggramatos" does not mean illiterate or simply "unschooled" though it was translated that way, it literally meant that they were not scholars of Jewish Law specifically. And no, that 1% is waaaay low, scholars today are finding it difficult to support numbers so low as 10%, especially among such groups as the Jews. (Imagine a religion that has their sons to read from the Torah to become a man at a bar mitzvah and they don't bother teaching the kid how to read, ay?) They go to regular school as well as Hebrew schools when they are kids to learn things such as how to read those passages. It is also something that happens at bat mitzvahs, BTW... so Hebrew women were likely also at least able to read (though as Cypress noted, reading and writing were separate skills back in that time).
Finally, Matthew was called by Jesus to become a disciple when he simply asked him to "Follow me", and he just did....
Matthew 9:9 - As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
Yeah, it sure does. Mark avoids the birth narrative altogether, doesn’t he?
The others with the birth stories have remarkably different accounts, too, if I recall
Let’s repeat. The gospel Matthew in the NT was not written by the disciple Matthew. Two different people.
Let’s repeat. Matthew, the gospel, was written in Greek.
Litmus
Verified User
that sucks when your half-brother's daddy is God.
I didn't say he wrote it, I said he wasn't illiterate, the response was he was "not a disciple" (which I proved wrong), I then noted that your insistence that all the disciples were illiterate based on the verse using the Greek word "aggramatos" was probably a poor assumption (an incorrect translation of an Aramaic word that meant "not schooled in Jewish Law") then told you why. Re-read the posts, tell me where I said Matthew wrote the Gospel attributed to him, if you can find it I will apologize.
Finally, when you reach the sentence where I specifically stated that they all "certainly had help writing" their Gospels... at that point you can run away in shame or simply apologize for attributing things to me that I simply did not say to try to pretend to win an argument. That's called a Strawman, and is the most abused logical fallacy on this board.
This is your quote about Matthew:
“It is likely far more than just Matthew were literate though they clearly had help writing their gospels”
Now, what were you referring to if you didn’t mean Matthew wrote his gospel? Perhaps if you used better English, it would be clear. Maybe you need some help there, as well.
And, there’s nothing in the gospels that said Matthew, the tax collector, was as good as “mathing” as the best of them. There are only a minor couple of references to that role in the entire NT.
Where did you get the notion that there were helpers assisting the synoptic gospel writers?
Again, the post I quoted said that all of the disciples were illiterate. My point was that they were not "all" illiterate and, using given knowledge, I proved it. Then you claimed that one of the disciples was not one of the disciples... and I showed you where he was called and when according to the Gospel...
I simply showed that saying the disciples were "all" illiterate was, at best, a poor assumption and at worst a purposeful misstatement as Matthew was a tax collector and Romans didn't hire illiterates for that job (you must keep records). There is however, something saying he was a tax collector, and they were at that time as they are now, generally good at "mathing" (again those pesky records they had to keep). And where I got that they "had help" was from the fact that none of those Gospels seem to have been published while those attributed with the Gospels was alive.
This is the point now where you can either stop trying to pretend you "know" things that are not true or continue to spread ignorance. I hope you choose to stop being ignorant.
You didn’t prove shit. First of all, pally boy, tax collector doesn’t mean accountant. More likely, he was a muscle man. There are 3 or so BRIEF mentions of him being a tax collector, or at least at the tax collector’s table, and nothing about “mathing”.
But, let’s dumb this down so that even you can understand it. In my little retirement job, unlike my professional career, most, if not all of my co-workers have just a basic education. High school at best. It’s clear they were not stellar students, either. Their language, general knowledge, math skills prove that. Now, they are probably considered literate in that they can read or do arithmetic at a basic level. But I’ve seen some of their written text. They can barely form a coherent sentence, much less compose anything like a knowledgeable written document. Spelling is abysmal.
The literate at that time were mostly located in the urban areas, not the hinterlands like Galilee, which is where the disciples were from. Even if they had a minimal ability to read Hebrew, as in the Torah, they were not going to be writing gospel, IN GREEK, 40 or so years after the crusifixion.
"Most likely" based on your "feels" for how much you think you are "right" rather than what you actually have in evidence is just random baseless circular logic. "I said they were illiterate and demand you to believe me because I said it is so, ignore that evidence, it isn't enough for me to change my feels!"
You argue like leftists think "Trumpets" argue.
Again, this isn't about who wrote the gospels, it is telling you that it is unlikely that every disciple was illiterate and why it is very unlikely. You used two strawmen, first circular logic and ending with the same strawman pointed out to you earlier.
I give your argument a -5 on a scale of -5 to 5. It doesn't even taste good in your own mouth, your face gives you away.
Geebus.... "Here's some of my poor opinion of others that live contemporarily to us! That means disciples couldn't read even if they were from a group of people who taught their children to read as part of their religion!"
Even people who haven't read this argument from you are rolling their eyes just from being nearby to someone else reading it, that much silliness cannot be contained on a single message board, it spreads..
Neither Mark nor John have a birth narrative.
The differences between the various gospel material is undoubtedly because they were each independently drawing from different oral and written traditions about Jesus that were circulating in the Eastern Mediterranean region at that time.
Litmus
Verified User
you're still just trying to say everyone was illiterate, becaue of your dumb life experiences where you feel you're the only one that can read or be smart.
The simple answer is there's very few people who have read Nietzsche and Heidegger, let alone modeled their lives on their books.
Billions of people have tried to model their lives and values on the teachings of the Bhudda, Jesus, or Muhammad