Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged (Movie)

Individual rights are not subject to a public vote or majority rule, but they are always subject to the rights of others.

Hence the "unless you are violating the rights of another" portion of the Libertarian philosophy. But those are the places you start going into lala land and repeating to yourself, "Mein Kampf! They all Love Hitler! This is because they don't think like me!"

Your assumption has drowned out your thought process and short circuited any chance at logic.
 
Hence the "unless you are violating the rights of another" portion of the Libertarian philosophy. But those are the places you start going into lala land and repeating to yourself, "Mein Kampf! They all Love Hitler! This is because they don't think like me!"

Your assumption has drowned out your thought process and short circuited any chance at logic.

Maybe you don't think like Hitler, but Ayn Rand did. Isn't she the focus of the OP. Rand was a Nietzsche clone, who was the an inspiration for right-wing German militarism. Bertrand Russell, in his History of Western Philosophy was scathing about Nietzsche, calling his work the "mere power-phantasies of an invalid", referring to him as a "megalomaniac", and writing that he was a philosophical progenitor of the Nazis and fascists. Nietzsche's works became closely associated with Adolf Hitler and the German Reich.
ref wiki

Hitler speaking to a group of industrialists in Düsseldorf in 1932:
"You maintain, gentlemen, that the German economy must be constructed on the basis of private property. Now such a conception of private property can only be maintained in practice if it in some way appears to have a logical foundation. This conception must derive its ethical justification from the insight that this is what nature dictates."

Rand, too, believes that capitalism is vulnerable to attack because it lacks "a philosophical base." If it is to survive, it must be rationally justified. We must "begin at the beginning," with nature itself. "In order to sustain its life, every living species has to follow a certain course of action required by its nature." Because reason is man's "means of survival," nature dictates that "men prosper or fail, survive or perish in proportion to the degree of their rationality." (Notice the slippage between success and failure and life and death.) Capitalism is the one system that acknowledges and incorporates this dictate of nature. "It is the basic, metaphysical fact of man's nature—the connection between his survival and his use of reason—that capitalism recognizes and protects." Like Hitler, Rand finds in nature, in man's struggle for survival, a "logical foundation" for capitalism.

Far from privileging the collective over the individual or subsuming the latter under the former, Hitler believed that it was the "strength and power of individual personality" that determined the economic (and cultural) fate of the race and nation. Here he is in 1933 addressing another group of industrialists:

"Everything positive, good and valuable that has been achieved in the world in the field of economics or culture is solely attributable to the importance of personality.... All the worldly goods we possess we owe to the struggle of the select few."

And here is Rand in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal (1967):

"The exceptional men, the innovators, the intellectual giants....It is the members of this exceptional minority who lift the whole of a free society to the level of their own achievements, while rising further and ever further."


"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393
 
Much of what Ayn Rand seems to be saying in Atlas Shrugged is summed up by Asimov's Three Rules of Robots excepting that the robots appear to have more humanity.

1 - A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2 - A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3 - A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.


http://www.lawrence.com/weblogs/reading-the-library/2009/apr/14/atlas-shrugged-by-ayn-rand/
 
Maybe you don't think like Hitler, but Ayn Rand did. Isn't she the focus of the OP. Rand was a Nietzsche clone, who was the an inspiration for right-wing German militarism. Bertrand Russell, in his History of Western Philosophy was scathing about Nietzsche, calling his work the "mere power-phantasies of an invalid", referring to him as a "megalomaniac", and writing that he was a philosophical progenitor of the Nazis and fascists. Nietzsche's works became closely associated with Adolf Hitler and the German Reich.
ref wiki

Hitler speaking to a group of industrialists in Düsseldorf in 1932:
"You maintain, gentlemen, that the German economy must be constructed on the basis of private property. Now such a conception of private property can only be maintained in practice if it in some way appears to have a logical foundation. This conception must derive its ethical justification from the insight that this is what nature dictates."

Rand, too, believes that capitalism is vulnerable to attack because it lacks "a philosophical base." If it is to survive, it must be rationally justified. We must "begin at the beginning," with nature itself. "In order to sustain its life, every living species has to follow a certain course of action required by its nature." Because reason is man's "means of survival," nature dictates that "men prosper or fail, survive or perish in proportion to the degree of their rationality." (Notice the slippage between success and failure and life and death.) Capitalism is the one system that acknowledges and incorporates this dictate of nature. "It is the basic, metaphysical fact of man's nature—the connection between his survival and his use of reason—that capitalism recognizes and protects." Like Hitler, Rand finds in nature, in man's struggle for survival, a "logical foundation" for capitalism.

Far from privileging the collective over the individual or subsuming the latter under the former, Hitler believed that it was the "strength and power of individual personality" that determined the economic (and cultural) fate of the race and nation. Here he is in 1933 addressing another group of industrialists:

"Everything positive, good and valuable that has been achieved in the world in the field of economics or culture is solely attributable to the importance of personality.... All the worldly goods we possess we owe to the struggle of the select few."

And here is Rand in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal (1967):

"The exceptional men, the innovators, the intellectual giants....It is the members of this exceptional minority who lift the whole of a free society to the level of their own achievements, while rising further and ever further."


"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

I love the Jefferson quote. You should put it in full context, you would understand that he was speaking of individual rights in that letter. He was one of the more amazing and oddly contradictory founders. The sum of the individuals brings focus back to the individuals...

Jefferson is one of my favorite people. And I still am looking forward to this movie. Even if it makes you suddenly go off onto contextless rants of individual quotes and "how much like Hitler" they make somebody. Ayn never argued that the government should control production of privately owned plants, like Hitler did. Ayn never suggests a totalitarian government approach, Hitler did. Ayn believed that the Jew had rights that shouldn't be violated... Shall we go on? Repeating nonsense doesn't make it other than nonsense, even if it is repeated by the echo chamber.

You can run your silly comparisons in your imaginary land as much as you want, but it won't ever make them true.
 
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities."
 
Individual rights are not subject to a public vote or majority rule, but they are always subject to the rights of others.

sure, until you declare rights to not be offended, or scared by inanimate objects, rights to government supplied healthcare, food, housing, income, etc.
 
"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

the reason leftists love jefferson quotes are his diehard convictions on individual rights. what they refuse to acknowledge was how his views changed once he became president.
 
I love the Jefferson quote. You should put it in full context, you would understand that he was speaking of individual rights in that letter. He was one of the more amazing and oddly contradictory founders. The sum of the individuals brings focus back to the individuals...

Jefferson is one of my favorite people. And I still am looking forward to this movie. Even if it makes you suddenly go off onto contextless rants of individual quotes and "how much like Hitler" they make somebody. Ayn never argued that the government should control production of privately owned plants, like Hitler did. Ayn never suggests a totalitarian government approach, Hitler did. Ayn believed that the Jew had rights that shouldn't be violated... Shall we go on? Repeating nonsense doesn't make it other than nonsense, even if it is repeated by the echo chamber.

You can run your silly comparisons in your imaginary land as much as you want, but it won't ever make them true.

And as a teenager Hitler didn't watched his family nearly starve while he treated himself to the theater, Rand did.

We are all born selfish and self absorbed. It is a symptom of immaturity. With proper upbringing, we are taught that no man is an island. We learn compassion, empathy and respect for the rights of every living thing. I do not believe any man is above me, nor is any man below me. We all deserve respect and the right to be treated as we wish to be treated. Hitler and Rand both believed some people are way above others. Ayn Rand is the antithesis of what I was taught and what I strongly believe.

There is no out of context mistake of Jefferson's words, no matter how hard you wish it were so Damo. More wisdom of Thomas Jefferson seems appropriate: "The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

And John F. Kennedy:
"There is inherited wealth in this country and also inherited poverty. And unless the graduates of this college and other colleges like it who are given a running start in life--unless they are willing to put back into our society, those talents, the broad sympathy, the understanding, the compassion--unless they are willing to put those qualities back into the service of the Great Republic, then obviously the presuppositions upon which our democracy are based are bound to be fallible."
 
There is no out of context mistake of Jefferson's words, no matter how hard you wish it were so Damo. More wisdom of Thomas Jefferson seems appropriate: "The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

And John F. Kennedy:
"There is inherited wealth in this country and also inherited poverty. And unless the graduates of this college and other colleges like it who are given a running start in life--unless they are willing to put back into our society, those talents, the broad sympathy, the understanding, the compassion--unless they are willing to put those qualities back into the service of the Great Republic, then obviously the presuppositions upon which our democracy are based are bound to be fallible."
do you have any clue what those quotes mean?
 
I love the Jefferson quote. You should put it in full context, you would understand that he was speaking of individual rights in that letter. He was one of the more amazing and oddly contradictory founders. The sum of the individuals brings focus back to the individuals...

Jefferson is one of my favorite people. And I still am looking forward to this movie. Even if it makes you suddenly go off onto contextless rants of individual quotes and "how much like Hitler" they make somebody. Ayn never argued that the government should control production of privately owned plants, like Hitler did. Ayn never suggests a totalitarian government approach, Hitler did. Ayn believed that the Jew had rights that shouldn't be violated... Shall we go on? Repeating nonsense doesn't make it other than nonsense, even if it is repeated by the echo chamber.

You can run your silly comparisons in your imaginary land as much as you want, but it won't ever make them true.

Hardly surprising that she believed that Jews had inviolate rights, her birth name Alisa Zinovyevna Rosenbaum ought to give a clue.
 
Well there was that and growing up in the USSR.

That's true, mother Russia wasn't the best place to be Jewish during the pogroms. That said, Lenin and the vast majority of the Bolsheviks were Jews, Lenin spoke Yiddish fluently and was nearly assassinated by a Jewess. He also condemned anti-Semitism as a state crime, and accepted all of the Revolution's money he could get from Jews in the banking business including Jacob Schiff of the Guaranty National Bank in America.
 
It's funny in too many ways that Bfgrn would mention Nietzsche. Especially since he is quoted multiple times as HATING anti-semites.
 
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