Because the lesser of two evils is still evil...

Hume said:
9. Based on false allegations that the election was stolen, Donald Trump summoned tens of thousands of supporters to Washington for January 6th. Although these supporters were angry and some were armed, Donald Trump instructed them to march to the Capitol on January 6th to “take back” their country.

10. Knowing that a violent attack on the Capitol was underway and knowing that his words would incite further violence, Donald Trump purposely sent a social media message publicly condemning Vice President Pence at 2:24 p.m. on January 6th.

11. Knowing that violence was underway at the Capitol, and despite his duty to ensure that the laws are faithfully executed, Donald Trump refused repeated requests over a multiple hour period that he instruct his violent supporters to disperse and leave the Capitol, and instead watched the violent attack unfold on television. This failure to act perpetuated the violence at the Capitol and obstructed Congress’s proceeding to count electoral votes.

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If you want to say Trump is a liar I'll agree. If you want to say he spread lies about multiple elections, agree. If you want to say he was slow to respond to the conspiracy theorists/lunatics on J6, I'll agree. The assumption that his words prove he wanted to cause, and can be held responsible for, the violence on J6, then you lost me. YOU may interpret his words a specific way but that's only your opinion. Lots of politicians use words like fight and battle. That doesn't mean they are trying to cause violence.
Certainly there is nothing near enough to warrant legal action.
 
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ZenMode said:
If you want to say Trump is a liar I'll agree. If you want to say he spread lies about multiple elections, agree. If you want to say he was slow to respond to the conspiracy theorists/lunatics on J6, I'll agree. The assumption that his words prove he wanted to cause, and can be held responsible for, the violence on J6, then you lost me. YOU may interpret his words a specific way but that's only your opinion. Lots of politicians use words like fight and battle. That doesn't mean they are trying to cause violence.
Certainly there is nothing near enough to warrant legal action.
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It depends on when and where. The previous speakers were rousing to violence Trump scheduled them. The messages were clear and purposeful. Trump and his people organized the rally with the intention of stopping the certification of Electoral College votes. It was not a coincidence that the rally was on 1-6 at the exact time that the joint house was meeting. Note that it was as close to the capital as it was possible to get. Listen to the other speakers and whatever doubts you have will be erased. Insurrection was the point and violence was the method.
 
ZenMode said:
If you want to say Trump is a liar I'll agree. If you want to say he spread lies about multiple elections, agree. If you want to say he was slow to respond to the conspiracy theorists/lunatics on J6, I'll agree. The assumption that his words prove he wanted to cause, and can be held responsible for, the violence on J6, then you lost me. YOU may interpret his words a specific way but that's only your opinion. Lots of politicians use words like fight and battle. That doesn't mean they are trying to cause violence.
Certainly there is nothing near enough to warrant legal action.
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Clearly you are a lying Trump supporter.
 
Commander Dutch said:
In a limited resource economy, you are right. In an unlimited resource economy, then where? What happens when renewable energy like fusion is achieved? Along with the transmutation of materials? What will people compete over?
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"What if's" and "could be's" isn't a plausible discussion for me. What you're describing is a Star Trek future. Of course, there's all that nastiness by the way of 3rd World War and such in between then and now.
 
QP! said:
The "lesser of two evils" argument is being abused here.



Again simply waving your hand and saying 'i cannot discern any meaningful difference, because i am lumping them under this broad umbrella', is just foolish.
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There are various reasons for voting 3rd 4th 5th party. Lifelong Republicans who would never support trump, but refuse to vote Democrat for any reason. They're making a statement to their party.

Those you reference above actually believe that before they die, enough people will be voting Libertarian to give them control of the nation. Failing that, they believe that their protest vote will force the two parties to pay attention.

And then there is the otherwise intelligent, but terribly ignorant of the issues group that makes claims about neither party representing them. That's where your scenario pertains. One party wants to represent them, but our system of govt. makes it simple for the minority to block all proposed legislation. Or pass heinous laws that take away their freedoms.

The answer is to vote for more Democrats down ballot so that the Manchins/Sinemas of the country don't wield so much power.

Not for some kid who might garner 1% of the vote.
 
Taichiliberal said:
"What if's" and "could be's" isn't a plausible discussion for me. What you're describing is a Star Trek future. Of course, there's all that nastiness by the way of 3rd World War and such in between then and now.
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Yes on "Star Trek future", but that's where the human race is headed. Those predicting doom and gloom are simply simple-minded.
 
Nordberg said:
It depends on when and where. The previous speakers were rousing to violence Trump scheduled them. The messages were clear and purposeful. Trump and his people organized the rally with the intention of stopping the certification of Electoral College votes. It was not a coincidence that the rally was on 1-6 at the exact time that the joint house was meeting. Note that it was as close to the capital as it was possible to get. Listen to the other speakers and whatever doubts you have will be erased. Insurrection was the point and violence was the method.
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There was a small segment of Trump supporters that were organized and were trying to stop certification. Trump's repeated lies about election theft and voter fraud absolutely contributed to the violence we saw. That is a much different claim than saying Trump literally scheduled/planned the riot.
 
Commander Dutch said:
Yes on "Star Trek future", but that's where the human race is headed. Those predicting doom and gloom are simply simple-minded.
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there is no fate.

the universe is random.

we go where we want.


decent people know the New World Order is bullshit, a turnkey solution to totalitarian technocratic hegemony.

you're in the bad person group. and that's sad for you.
:truestory:
 
ZenMode said:
There was a small segment of Trump supporters that were organized and were trying to stop certification. Trump's repeated lies about election theft and voter fraud absolutely contributed to the violence we saw. That is a much different claim than saying Trump literally scheduled/planned the riot.
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if trump wanted to keep power he could have declared an emergency and gone full dictator.

he left peacefully.
 
ZenMode said:
There was a small segment of Trump supporters that were organized and were trying to stop certification. Trump's repeated lies about election theft and voter fraud absolutely contributed to the violence we saw. That is a much different claim than saying Trump literally scheduled/planned the riot.
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The rally was organized online. The speakers were determined. Their messages were approved or written for them. The fact that every speaker had the same message should tell you something. It was planned. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/g...ed-in-jan-6-protest-planning-new-report-shows
 
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ZenMode said:
There was a small segment of Trump supporters that were organized and were trying to stop certification. Trump's repeated lies about election theft and voter fraud absolutely contributed to the violence we saw. That is a much different claim than saying Trump literally scheduled/planned the riot.
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Trump literally scheduled/planned the riot.
 
ZenMode said:
If you want to say Trump is a liar I'll agree. If you want to say he spread lies about multiple elections, agree. If you want to say he was slow to respond to the conspiracy theorists/lunatics on J6, I'll agree. The assumption that his words prove he wanted to cause, and can be held responsible for, the violence on J6, then you lost me. YOU may interpret his words a specific way but that's only your opinion. Lots of politicians use words like fight and battle. That doesn't mean they are trying to cause violence.
Certainly there is nothing near enough to warrant legal action.
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You are lost because you simply are not smart and thus get lost.

Bannon was crystal, after speaking with Trump, that they knew EXACTLY what they foment on Jan6th, if Trump lost.

Bannon predicted ‘all hell is going to break loose tomorrow’ after Jan. 5 call with Trump​


Former President Trump spoke on the phone with his former White House adviser and political strategist Stephen Bannon at least twice the day before the Capitol attack,...

After the first call on the morning of Jan. 5, 2021, which lasted 11 minutes, ..., Bannon went on a right-wing talk show and predicted the next day would be eventful.

“All hell is going to break loose tomorrow,” ... “It’s all converging, and now we’re on, as they say, the point of attack.”

“I’ll tell you this: It’s not going to happen like you think it’s going to happen,” he added. “It’s going to be quite extraordinarily different, and all I can say is strap in.”...
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So Bannon and Trump KNEW exactly what you either are lying about or are ignorant of.
 
Althea said:
There are various reasons for voting 3rd 4th 5th party. Lifelong Republicans who would never support trump, but refuse to vote Democrat for any reason. They're making a statement to their party.

Those you reference above actually believe that before they die, enough people will be voting Libertarian to give them control of the nation. Failing that, they believe that their protest vote will force the two parties to pay attention.

And then there is the otherwise intelligent, but terribly ignorant of the issues group that makes claims about neither party representing them. That's where your scenario pertains. One party wants to represent them, but our system of govt. makes it simple for the minority to block all proposed legislation. Or pass heinous laws that take away their freedoms.

The answer is to vote for more Democrats down ballot so that the Manchins/Sinemas of the country don't wield so much power.

Not for some kid who might garner 1% of the vote.
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And generally i agree with that.

For decades the GOP and Dem parties where trending towards the center right and center left, and for those who wanted 'real change' they would not really find much between the two parties. All the change was around the edges with the status quo continuing. Who was more 'right wing/corporate', Hillary or GWBJr???

And i supported the right and left fringes trying to make enough noise to shake the parties up.

But Trump and his promise to end the process of 'voter choice in gov't' represents a different threat that those who want 'change' need to recognize. This happened in Turkey and Erdoğan, effectively ended the democracy they had there. And it followed in Hungary with Orbán. Both of whom Trump idolizes and looks to as his model as to how to break the system from within.

I think most libertarian voters are so wedded to their 'rebel' image, that they would ignore the threat that would harm their goals, as much as anyone else.

This is Trump's last kick at the can. He needs to be defeated and then the old battles can be engaged.
 
QP! said:
You are lost because you simply are not smart and thus get lost.

Bannon was crystal, after speaking with Trump, that they knew EXACTLY what they foment on Jan6th, if Trump lost.



So Bannon and Trump KNEW exactly what you either are lying about or are ignorant of.
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I've listened to the audio recording of Bannon. There is no mention or implication of violence..
 
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