Brits resort to pulling own teeth

[AnyOldIron]

France does not take out the profit motive in being a Doctor. It is places that make it illegal to have a private practice that I am mostly speaking against. Like Canada.

There is a reason that doctors leave Canada to practice here, it isn't because what they are doing is working, and it is because they take much of the incentive away for them to do well.

It isn't illegal to have private practice in the UK, and you don't have mass migration from the NHS to private sector hospitals. You assume that those that do, such as groups of dentists in some limited areas are better than those who remain in the NHS.

Maybe there is a different culture in the US, follow the dollar and to hell with you jack? We did that in the last century, it didn't work and that's why we created the NHS.....

 

[Diuretic]

Canada. I watch other places who have taken such a system on, and find them lacking. There is a reason the best doctors leave Canada to practice in the US. Amazingly it isn't solely greed either. They prefer to be able to actually practice medicine as they have been taught.

Ah yes, of course - I simpy can't understand their prohibition on private practice. Good point.
(Missed it the first time around).

 

[Diuretic]

Like I said, there is cooperation and competition going on on all different level. They cooperate on the mammoth kill, they compete for mates, the clan may cooperate with some clans, but compete with others. Your simplistic intellect is stifling you. Get smart.

True enough, there is competition for mates, evolution won't be denied. Competition between clans was, I would think, usually for food resources. However I would think there would also have been cooperation between clans as well. There's evidence for it here in Australia among ancient aboriginal groups going back some forty thousand years. Trade between clans was apparently widespread through the eastern parts where living was above subsistence level, not so in the more arid parts where nomads existed as opposed to the more sedentary in the eastern parts. That was probably because in the end competition, conflict between clans, wasn't too productive. In the arid areas clans occupied so much land that they rarely, if ever, bumped into each other.

There we are, a response without a personal slight.

 

[Diuretic]

It isn't illegal to have private practice in the UK, and you don't have mass migration from the NHS to private sector hospitals. You assume that those that do, such as groups of dentists in some limited areas are better than those who remain in the NHS.

Maybe there is a different culture in the US, follow the dollar and to hell with you jack? We did that in the last century, it didn't work and that's why we created the NHS.....

And a great institution it is, the NHS I mean. Amazing vision, we need the sort of politician Nye Bevan was, someone with principle and vision and not the wusses we get nowadays.

 

[AnyOldIron]

They cooperate on the mammoth kill, they compete for mates,

And today we should cooperate on the essential services that Adam Smith's invisible hand can't distribute properly, and compete on consumer goods such as TVs, chocolate and sofas....

 

[AnyOldIron]

And a great institution it is, the NHS I mean. Amazing vision, we need the sort of politician Nye Bevan was, someone with principle and vision and not the wusses we get nowadays.

Yeah, men of action. But then was a time for men of action. For example, many Polish exiles fought in the RAF in the Battle of Britain, after the war Churchill just signed a document and they were citizens....

Amazing times.

 

[Damocles]

If you take the incentive from the best and brightest, those that compete the strongest and are more capable, to do well in any particular area then those you have left providing the service may "do" for you, but I prefer the best and brightest giving me my medical care rather than what was left after those most capable of competing have left.

That's pretty condescending to the many excellent doctors working in the NHS, Damo. It assumes that those that work in the NHS are somehow second best, but the long history of medical discovery through the NHS, and the work of doctors up and down the country on a daily basis may prove you wrong...

They don't prove me wrong. If I am right then there is a dearth of discovery that would have happened. But saying, "See? They discovered something!" says nothing to the ability of those who decided to take their ability to compete at a higher level elsewhere with more profitability. Plus, I have said nothing against your system which does not make it illegal to have a private practice. I have spoken only against systems which make it illegal to operate any private practice and thus remove the incentive for those who compete in that way.

You take from yourself when you do this, saying what is there has done *this* does not include those discoveries those other doctors would have/could have made.

 

[AnyOldIron]

They don't prove me wrong. If I am right then there is a dearth of discovery that would have happened. But saying, "See? They discovered something!" says nothing to the ability of those who decided to take their ability to compete at a higher level elsewhere with more profitability. Plus, I have said nothing against your system which does not make it illegal to have a private practice. I have spoken only against systems which make it illegal to operate any private practice and thus remove the incentive for those who compete in that way.

The ethos of your argument is that making higher and higher profits, which all business must to be deemed successfull, automatically attracts the 'better' doctors. This isn't true.

You take from yourself when you do this, saying what is there has done *this* does not include those discoveries those other doctors would have/could have made.

Nor can you say that the private sector attracts the 'better' doctors because of profitability.

You are largely attacking a strawman, or at least in part. My comment that a dearth of discoveries coming from the NHS is merely me pointing out that if the NHS doctors were so poor because they were 'left behind by the markets as second best' where would such discovery come from?

And in a free market as we have in the UK, why hasn't the private sector taken a larger slice of the market from the Public, if profitability attracts the 'better' doctors?

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Medical care is an inelastic part of the economy. The government can govern just as well or better than the market. In either case doctors make a steady income regardless of the "quality" of their work.

 

[Damocles]

And in a free market as we have in the UK, why hasn't the private sector taken a larger slice of the market from the Public, if profitability attracts the 'better' doctors?

LOL because people are cheap. I believe that in your system, the doctors who are in NHS are also allowed to do freelance side work, correct?

Your system is not one of the systems against which I have argued as the incentive is still there.

 

[AnyOldIron]

LOL because people are cheap. I believe that in your system, the doctors who are in NHS are also allowed to do freelance side work, correct?

Dentists can do both private and NHS work. Doctors have exclusive contracts with NHS trusts, independent organisations.

Your system is not one of the systems against which I have argued as the incentive is still there.

The incentive for better doctors to move to private practice? If profitability did inspire better practice amongst doctors, why hasn't the private sector taken more of a share of the market from the public.

Your fundamental point, that profitability inspires better doctors isn't demonstrated.

 

[Lao Tse]

LOL because people are cheap. I believe that in your system, the doctors who are in NHS are also allowed to do freelance side work, correct?

Your system is not one of the systems against which I have argued as the incentive is still there.

The incentive is still there for doctors to neglect the public system. So it's ok for doctors. There still a massive money sinkhole called a public health system and a bunch of poor sots who get shit care.

 

[Damocles]

LOL because people are cheap. I believe that in your system, the doctors who are in NHS are also allowed to do freelance side work, correct?

Dentists can do both private and NHS work. Doctors have exclusive contracts with NHS trusts, independent organisations.

Your system is not one of the systems against which I have argued as the incentive is still there.

The incentive for better doctors to move to private practice? If profitability did inspire better practice amongst doctors, why hasn't the private sector taken more of a share of the market from the public.

Your fundamental point, that profitability inspires better doctors isn't demonstrated.

You are once again trying to work only in black and white, it isn't so.

Such incentives are only for those who excel at that type of competition. Other people have other incentives. The best systems use all of their incentives to find the best and brightest. Taking away one of them and then saying it doesn't matter is simply unnecessarily limiting your choices. You have less than you would with the added incentive.

I always laugh when people get all huffy on somebody on the other side for being all black and white when speaking about their Faith, it is the same in discussions such as this. This doesn't have to be "either/or", all or nothing, this or that, it can be both and work well.

I'll tell you one thing, in the US you would not see them sending LadyT off on an airplane with a shattered nose because she would have had to wait over 2 weeks for an appointment, then get the nose rebroken before it as fixed.

Does this show a problem with your system? I say it does.

 

[charver]

I'll tell you one thing, in the US you would not see them sending LadyT off on an airplane with a shattered nose because she would have had to wait over 2 weeks for an appointment, then get the nose rebroken before it as fixed.

Does this show a problem with your system? I say it does.

I may have got the wrong end of this (i haven't read all of the thread as i'm a busy little bee, although not literally, that would be absurd with the keyboard and the compound eyes etc) but where do you get the idea you have to wait two weeks for an appointment to fix a broken nose? Loads of my mates have had broken noses (i mix with some undesirables) and you generally just pop down the hospital and you're done in an hour or so.

 

[Cancel7]

I may have got the wrong end of this (i haven't read all of the thread as i'm a busy little bee, although not literally, that would be absurd with the keyboard and the compound eyes etc) but where do you get the idea you have to wait two weeks for an appointment to fix a broken nose? Loads of my mates have had broken noses (i mix with some undesirables) and you generally just pop down the hospital and you're done in an hour or so.

Tiana had a really bad experience when she was there, which everyone here has used to judge your entire system by. She apparently needed a specialist? It was a bad break. She flew back here to get it fixed.

 

[charver]

Tiana had a really bad experience when she was there, which everyone here has used to judge your entire system by. She apparently needed a specialist? It was a bad break. She flew back here to get it fixed.

Oh ok, that explains it. Thanks.

I'll have the NHS dismantled immediately. Both my parents have had their heart bypass operations now, but if they need any other treatment in future they can just sell their house or something. Fucking freeloaders.

 

[Damocles]

I may have got the wrong end of this (i haven't read all of the thread as i'm a busy little bee, although not literally, that would be absurd with the keyboard and the compound eyes etc) but where do you get the idea you have to wait two weeks for an appointment to fix a broken nose? Loads of my mates have had broken noses (i mix with some undesirables) and you generally just pop down the hospital and you're done in an hour or so.

LadyT described her situation, they packed her nose up, and sent her off for a later appointment.

 

[Cancel7]

Oh ok, that explains it. Thanks.

I'll have the NHS dismantled immediately. Both my parents have had their heart bypass operations now, but if they need any other treatment in future they can just sell their house or something. Fucking freeloaders.

Yeah, I know.

I have lost someone due to a mistake in a hospital here, by a NYU Neurosurgeon no less.

Bad things happen everywhere. Mistakes happen everywhere. One experience is not reflective of an entire system, but you can't get that through and I have given up on that, I don't care.

Enough Americans understand our system is broken and it doesn't matter what is going on in the UK or Canada, our system is broken, period.

Change is going to come here. Finally. And that is what matters, really.

 

[Damocles]

Yeah, I know.

I have lost someone due to a mistake in a hospital here, by a NYU Neurosurgeon no less.

Bad things happen everywhere. Mistakes happen everywhere. One experience is not reflective of an entire system, but you can't get that through and I have given up on that, I don't care.

Enough Americans understand our system is broken and it doesn't matter what is going on in the UK or Canada, our system is broken, period.

Change is going to come here. Finally. And that is what matters, really.

The likelihood that such a wait would happen to another as well is very high. Such a wait would be unheard of here, for those with insurance.

Now, there are issues here, and they can be fixed. But ignoring problems elsewhere while working on fixing problems here can cause us to create the same problems that happened in other places. I prefer to learn from problems elsewhere rather than pretend that they don't exist.

 

[uscitizen]

Everybody needs food. Why is food still handled by free market?

Markets give incentives to do better when there is adequate competition. Having the government handle it eliminates all competition. It will be a monopoly. GO study the disadvantages of monopoly, mr. logic.

It is much simpler to produce food. I produce food. Wanna let me drill on your teeth Asshat ?
I have a nice little mini air grinder with lots of bits and some ViseGrip pliers...