Burma

My opinion based on real life experience...I don't bounce around on any issues...I stick my ground...something about being a vet...only retreat and reorganize for another offensive...the only way to win...carry on a carrying on if thats your bag!

Unfortunatly, you're real life experience should have taught you that installing regimes militarily rarely works out. The change has to come from within, and the people have to want it. If it's not obvious to you yet, the people in Burma want change, much more so than the people of previous ventures we've stuck ourselves into. A government can not run when it has no one to prop it up. If the people don't support the government, the government must look to outside sources (China, India, Russia.. etc).
 
No damo...........

If I do run, I will likely run far right. That is what will win in my area. I already stated this, but you clearly don't read. Of course, not promoting war in Burma is "lefty" to you somehow.


I am promoting nothing in relation to Burma et al...y'all brought this topic up...along with Dufar et al...ya keep protesting in the safety of the internet/livingroom...I only suggested through innuendo... if you are so passionate...by a Plane ticket to Burma and put your life where your mouth is(protest on the front line)...this is your cause since you claim to be a Buddhist and all! I said I would fight for a Buddhist as well as a Iraqi or Iranian or S/Vienamese if they asked for help...I answered when I was your age...do the same or quit with all the drama already!
 
Fine..........

Unfortunatly, you're real life experience should have taught you that installing regimes militarily rarely works out. The change has to come from within, and the people have to want it. If it's not obvious to you yet, the people in Burma want change, much more so than the people of previous ventures we've stuck ourselves into. A government can not run when it has no one to prop it up. If the people don't support the government, the government must look to outside sources (China, India, Russia.. etc).


Buy a plane ticket...give up your cushy job...stand as one with the people you want to help...protest next to them...not in your living room! This does not impress them or me!
Nor does it carry any weight in the real world...!
 
Buy a plane ticket...give up your cushy job...stand as one with the people you want to help...protest next to them...not in your living room! This does not impress them or me!
Nor does it carry any weight in the real world...!

You're a lunatic, are you that desperate to win 'debate' points that you would say that our desperation means nothing unless we put ourselves in harms way, completely unarmed? The people of Burma did their job already and got the worlds attention, now it is the worlds job to do something, and our job as individuals to put pressure on our governments to respond. I don't care to impress you, and I can tell you don't put much thought into what you say.
 
I am promoting nothing in relation to Burma et al...y'all brought this topic up...along with Dufar et al...ya keep protesting in the safety of the internet/livingroom...I only suggested through innuendo... if you are so passionate...by a Plane ticket to Burma and put your life where your mouth is(protest on the front line)...this is your cause since you claim to be a Buddhist and all! I said I would fight for a Buddhist as well as a Iraqi or Iranian or S/Vienamese if they asked for help...I answered when I was your age...do the same or quit with all the drama already!
I answered when I was 17, stayed until I was 21. Get over yourself.

The only drama we have here is you pretending that I have suggested war in Burma instead of a different course of action that our government would take. That you could care less about the people there and pretend that the only two options are either "war" or "do nothing at all" is also obvious.

It wasn't war with the USSR that finally beat them.
 
No lunatic here..............

You're a lunatic, are you that desperate to win 'debate' points that you would say that our desperation means nothing unless we put ourselves in harms way, completely unarmed? The people of Burma did their job already and got the worlds attention, now it is the worlds job to do something, and our job as individuals to put pressure on our governments to respond. I don't care to impress you, and I can tell you don't put much thought into what you say.


Thats what I am saying...put up or shut up...quit cowaring to fear...talk is cheap...action rocks...impress me and the desparate world in turmoil ...Y'all claim to have the answers...go over and show the demonstrators how dialog works...they are in a fight for their lives...y'all act like this is a video game...go smell the pain and blood...then get back to me about dialog!
 
Yes damo.............

I answered when I was 17, stayed until I was 21. Get over yourself.

The only drama we have here is you pretending that I have suggested war in Burma instead of a different course of action that our government would take. That you could care less about the people there and pretend that the only two options are either "war" or "do nothing at all" is also obvious.

It wasn't war with the USSR that finally beat them.


You were in the Navy...a great and needed organization...under the sea in a yellow submarine...like I said smell the pain and blood...and show me how this armchair dialog works...I have never experienced armchair dialog...but y'all have experienced the results of those who suffered the pain...y'all can talk on internet created by non other than Al (wonder boy) Gore and Hero Lt.Kerry...! All I suggested is if you are so passionate give up the cushy job and warm livingroom and stand by those you claim to support! You said in another thread you wanted to go toIraq as a consultant...forget that go to Burma and help old Buddah and his Monks..stand next to them to show real solidarity!
 
Thats what I am saying...put up or shut up...quit cowaring to fear...talk is cheap...action rocks...impress me and the desparate world in turmoil ...Y'all claim to have the answers...go over and show the demonstrators how dialog works...they are in a fight for their lives...y'all act like this is a video game...go smell the pain and blood...then get back to me about dialog!

Why would I want to impress someone who is a mental midget? Seriously, if you think being dumb by making yourself a target is more powerful than understanding your role and doing it, then it is no wonder you supported the war.

The demonstrators already KNOW what to do and have done a hell of a job doing it, for me to put myself in harms way because you think bravery is more powerful than intellect is pure insanity.

Geez, for someone to say this seems like a Video Game, I have yet to see a Video Game complex enough to actually take on real world politics, but have seen plenty that take on war strategy.
 
You were in the Navy...a great and needed organization...under the sea in a yellow submarine...like I said smell the pain and blood...and show me how this armchair dialog works...I have never experienced armchair dialog...but y'all have experienced the results of those who suffered the pain...y'all can talk on internet created by non other than Al (wonder boy) Gore and Hero Lt.Kerry...! All I suggested is if you are so passionate give up the cushy job and warm livingroom and stand by those you claim to support! You said in another thread you wanted to go toIraq as a consultant...forget that go to Burma and help old Buddah and his Monks..stand next to them to show real solidarity!
This is seriously dumb. I served. The better response to this would be to pressure my own government to put the needed pressure on the Chinese government who can effect Burma far more than we could. Just adding more meat for the Myanmar armies to slaughter would do no good at all.
 
Right damo....

This is seriously dumb. I served. The better response to this would be to pressure my own government to put the needed pressure on the Chinese government who can effect Burma far more than we could. Just adding more meat for the Myanmar armies to slaughter would do no good at all.


when we quit buying Chinese cheapo goods that really suck..and tell them to kiss our arse on the debt they hold...I will listen to this diatribe...until then buy a plane ticket and take DD and Darla...hold hands in solidarity with the Monks...break bread and smell the real world...then we can talk...time to hit the road missed some stuff at the store yesterday and dinner needs some missed spices...tonight for dinner Meat a balls and cabbage with a red sauce...and of course Garlic Bread...I would have a monk beer...but they are hard to find...bring me back a case when y'all get back!
 
Opp's missed this one...........

Why would I want to impress someone who is a mental midget? Seriously, if you think being dumb by making yourself a target is more powerful than understanding your role and doing it, then it is no wonder you supported the war.

The demonstrators already KNOW what to do and have done a hell of a job doing it, for me to put myself in harms way because you think bravery is more powerful than intellect is pure insanity.

Geez, for someone to say this seems like a Video Game, I have yet to see a Video Game complex enough to actually take on real world politics, but have seen plenty that take on war strategy.



Whatever DD...Go buy some Chicken soup...kick back and see the doc in the morning! Night -Night!
 
when we quit buying Chinese cheapo goods that really suck..and tell them to kiss our arse on the debt they hold...I will listen to this diatribe...until then buy a plane ticket and take DD and Darla...hold hands in solidarity with the Monks...break bread and smell the real world...then we can talk...time to hit the road missed some stuff at the store yesterday and dinner needs some missed spices...tonight for dinner Meat a balls and cabbage with a red sauce...and of course Garlic Bread...I would have a monk beer...but they are hard to find...bring me back a case when y'all get back!
They aren't hard to find, I am sure there are some very near to you. I know that there are here.
 
when we quit buying Chinese cheapo goods that really suck..and tell them to kiss our arse on the debt they hold...I will listen to this diatribe...until then buy a plane ticket and take DD and Darla...hold hands in solidarity with the Monks...break bread and smell the real world...then we can talk...time to hit the road missed some stuff at the store yesterday and dinner needs some missed spices...tonight for dinner Meat a balls and cabbage with a red sauce...and of course Garlic Bread...I would have a monk beer...but they are hard to find...bring me back a case when y'all get back!

Hold hands with the monks, eh? You mean, be held at gunpoint inside of a monastery or be detained in a Burmese prison? No thanks, that's totally pointless and stupid. It would do nothing for the cause and you know it, so stop listening to this diatribe if you wish to present deaf ears, it would be honorable for you to just be quiet, and walk away from this thread. At least walk away with the little respect you have rather than respond with 'Whatever' when you know your suggestion was nuts.
 
Global Government Hypocrisy on Burma [Commentary]
By Satya Sagar
October 2, 2007

As the Burmese military brutally cracks down on a popular citizen uprising demanding democracy the question on many minds is—so what is the world going to do about it?

From the trend visible so far the answer is simple—nothing at all.

Nothing, that is, beyond the usual condemnations and pious appeals for "peaceful dialogue" and the posturing at international forums in support of the Burmese people.

Nothing more, that is, than dispatching a lame duck UN envoy to negotiate with the paranoid Burmese generals. Negotiate what? Funeral services for the innocent victims mowed down like rabbits on the streets of Rangoon?

It is not that nothing can be done at all—to begin with, how about kicking the illegitimate military regime out of the UN seat it continues to occupy and replace it with the country's elected government-in-exile? Why should Burma continue to be a member of Asean or for that matter, by default, also of the Asia-Europe Meeting or ASEM?

What about international sanctions on foreign companies doing business in Burma— including dozens and dozens of Western companies apart from those from Asia? Why should large oil companies like US-based Chevron, the Malaysian Petronas, South Korea's Daewoo International Corp or French Total continue to be involved in Burma without facing penalties for their support of one of the world's most heinous dictatorships?

The answers to these elementary questions are quite elementary too—it is Burma's abundant natural resources and investment opportunities that really matter. Which government really gives a damn for corralled Burmese citizens desperately battling a quasi-fascist regime that is open to foreign enterprises and shut to its own people?

Following the bloodshed in Burma the new French President Nicholas "Napoleon'" Sarkozy, for instance, grandly called on French companies to freeze all their operations in Burma. Close on his heels Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner clarified, however, that the French oil giant Total, the largest European company operating in Burma, will not pull out for fear they will be "replaced by the Chinese."

Gordon Brown, the British prime minister, also expressed "outrage" at the Burmese government's despicable behavior but was mum about UK companies merrily investing away in Burma. Between 1988 and 2004, companies based out of British territories invested more than £1.2bn in Burma, making Britain the second largest investor in this supposedly ostracised country. The sun it seems has not only set on the British Empire but—on its way out—also deep fried the conscience of its politicians.

The most predictable rhetoric of course came from US President George Bush who while announcing a slew of sanctions on Burma's military leaders incredibly said, "I urge the Burmese soldiers and police not to use force on their fellow citizens."

Wait a minute, that is what the Burmese soldiers and police are trained and paid to do- shoot fellow citizens—so what was the point Bush was trying to make? As usual only he and his Maker—from whom he claims to take instructions directly—knows.

Bush could have maybe uttered better chosen words but none of it would have been credible coming from a man with a record of war mongering and mass killings in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Bush regime's systematic destruction of international human rights norms have robbed it of the right to lecture even something as low as the Burmese junta about anything. A sad situation indeed.

What about Burma's old friends like Thailand, Singapore and MAlaysia who in a surprise indictment of their fellow Asean member expressed "revulsion" at the use of deadly force against innocent civilians? Their statement was welcome no doubt but comes at least two decades too late to be of any real meaning.

Burma's military rulers have already milked the dubious Asean policy of "constructive engagement" for what it was worth to shore up both their regime at home and claw their way back to recognition abroad. In the early 90s when the Burmese generals were really down and out, it was Asean that offered them succour and friendship while chastising those who called for democracy in Burma as being ignorant of "Asian values."

All this leaves China and India, two of Burma's giant neighbors, who have showered the Burmese junta with investments, aid and the sale of armaments, and the world now expects them to use their "influence" over the generals.

China's active support for the Burmese regime is not surprising at all for a country with its own sordid record of suppressing democratic movements at home and shooting civilian dissenters. I don't, however, think the Chinese are really worried about Burmese democracy triggering off another Tiananmen-like event in their own country—not immediately at least and not as long as China's consumerist boom keeps its population hypnotised.

In fact, the Chinese, pragmatic as they are and conscious of protecting their many investments in Burma, may also be among the first to actively topple the Burmese junta if they feel that the tide of protests for democracy is about to win. Their future position on Burma will surely seesaw like a yo-yo depending which cat, black or white, is catching the mice.

Of all the countries around the world, the most shameful position is held by India, once the land of the likes of Mahatma Gandhi but now run by politicians with morals that would make a snake-oil salesman squirm. India likes to claim at every opportunity that it is "the world's largest democracy" but what it tells no one, but everyone can see, is that its understanding of democracy is also of the "lowest quality."

Why else would the Indian government for instance send its Minister for Petroleum, Murali Deora, to sign a gas exploration deal with the military junta in late September just as it was plotting the wanton murder of its own citizens. In recent years, India, among other sweet deals, has also been helping the Burmese military with arms and training—as if their bullets were not hitting their people accurately enough.

It was not always like this though. The "idealist" phase of India's foreign policy approach to Burma dates from when Indian Prime Minister Nehru and his Burmese counterpart U Nu were close friends and decided policies based on trust and cooperation. After U Nu's ouster in a military coup in 1962, successive Indian governments opposed the dictatorship on principle.

At the height of the pro-democracy movement in 1988, the All India Radio's Burmese service for instance had even called General Newin and his men "dogs" (very insulting to dogs of course). With the coming of the P.V.Narasimha Rao government in 1992, it is India that has been wagging its tail all along.

The "pragmatic" phase of Indian foreign policy toward Burma since the early 90s meant throwing principles out the window and doing anything required to further Indian strategic and economic interests. An additional excuse to cozy up to the military junta was the perceived need to counter "Chinese influence" over the country.

In all these years, however, there is little evidence that India's long-term interests were better met by "amoral pragmatism" than the "muddled idealism" that had prevailed in the past. In fact, what emerges on a close examination of current Indian policy is that, for all its real politik gloss, the only beneficiary is the Burmese regime itself.

Take the myth of India countering China which, according to Indian defense analysts, has in the last two decades gained a significant foothold in Burma, setting up military installations targeting India and wielding considerable influence on the regime and its strategic thinking. They say that India's strong pro-democracy stand in the wake of the 1988 Burmese uprising provided a window for countries like China and Pakistan to get closer to the Burmese generals.

Indian and other defense analysts, with their blinkered view of the world as a geo-political chess game, forget that the then Indian government's decision to back the pro-democracy movement was not a "mistake" born out of ignorance, but an official reflection of the genuine support for the Burmese people among Indian citizens.

The second myth that propels the Indian foreign ministry to woo the Burmese generals is that by doing so India can get Burma's support in curbing the arms and drugs trafficking that fuel the insurgencies in the Indian Northeast. This argument assumes that the Burmese junta is both willing and able to control the activities of Indian ethnic militants and Burmese drug traffickers along the border. In the case of drug trafficking from Burma, there is reason to be worried—groups close to the regime benefit directly from the trade.

Through its current policy the Indian government has achieved none of its strategic aims in Burma and instead alienated Burma's pro-democracy movement and its millions of supporters worldwide. While sections of the Indian population are apathetic or ignorant about their government's policies towards Burma, their silence does not imply approval.

India is not a democracy because of the benevolence of its elitist politicians, bureaucrats and "defence analysts," but despite them and because of the strong abhorrence of dictatorship of any kind among the Indian people. It is high time that the Indian government respected the sentiments of its voters and stopped misusing the term "national interests" to support Burma's military dictators.

As for the Burmese people themselves, what the world's willful impotence in dealing with their brutal rulers indicates is that ultimately they will have to achieve democratic rule in Burma entirely on their own strength.

The people of the world will of course support them in whatever way they can, but to expect governments around the globe to help topple the Burmese military regime is as unrealistic as asking the regime to step down on its own. There is no option but to keep the struggle going.

Satya Sagar is a writer, journalist and video maker based in New Delhi. He can be reached at sagarnama@gmail.com

http://www.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=8848
 
China Rejects Attempt to Link Developments in Burma to Beijing Olympics

By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 2, 2007; Page A10

A spokesman for the Chinese Embassy said yesterday that his government is working hard to stem the violence in Burma and argued against efforts by activists to link participation in the Beijing-based 2008 Summer Olympics to China's handling of Burma.

Linking the two is "totally irresponsible," Wang Baodong, spokesman for the Chinese Embassy, said at a hastily called news conference. He said that the Olympicmovement is based on "non-politicalization," and that China's "consistent stance is that irrelevant issues should not be linked to the Beijing Olympic games."

China proved sensitive to an earlier attempt by activists in the fight against genocide in Sudan's Darfur region to organize a campaign to boycott the Olympics. It responded by appointing a special envoy on Darfur and became more actively involved in seeking a settlement between the government and rebels.

China's sensitivity about similar calls to link developments in Burma to the Olympics was reflected by the embassy's decision to hold the news conference on a Chinese national holiday. Beijing has deep trade and business ties with the military junta that controls Burma, also known as Myanmar, and earlier this year joined Russia in vetoing a U.N. Security Council resolution that would have pushed Burma to ease repression and release political prisoners.

China, when it vetoed the U.N. resolution, pointed to the generally neutral stance of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, of which Burma is a member. But the association has turned against Burma, declaring last week its "revulsion" over the bloody government crackdown on demonstrators.

Wang said China helped to get a special U.N. envoy into Burma, and he described meetings on the crisis involving Chinese officials last week. He insisted that "in the last couple of days, the situation there appears to have some signs of relaxation."

In response to a question about whether China wanted Burma to reach out to detained opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi, Wang said: "We encourage the national reconciliation among the various parties of the country through peaceful means, and, of course, dialogue included."

In a speech to the U.N. General Assembly yesterday, Burmese Foreign Minister Nyan Win said his government is the victim of an international neocolonial effort to derail Burma's goal of establishing a "disciplined democracy."

"When protesters ignored their warnings," he said, government forces "had to take action to restore the situation. Normalcy has now returned to Myanmar."

Staff writer Colum Lynch at the United Nations contributed to this report.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/01/AR2007100101712.html

China doesn't like the idea much that the world is willing to take action against their Olympics and is trying to minimalize their role in this, obviously, to try and save face. We must continue putting on pressure.
 
***sigh***

Jesus Christ can you imagine how bad he stinks?

whatever duhla...if old spice smells bad..you must be in serious trouble with all the petchulee(pun) you douse yourself with! Did I mention you in this thread...No!...But you sure have a fetish about me...go away little girl!
 
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