Canada, Mexico Steelmakers Refuse New US Orders

Tbird19482 said:
I don't know , do you know how many millions of Americans get their electric from Canada?
Most of the northern mid west states , NH Vermont MI, MA the very Northern part of NY .
As I said they could shut it down for a week or 10 days and do some major damage to our economy.
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I'm thinking NY is safe unless Canada can stop Niagara Falls. The other states are vulnerable, but I really don't see Canada doing that.
 
Althea said:
I'm thinking NY is safe unless Canada can stop Niagara Falls. The other states are vulnerable, but I really don't see Canada doing that.
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No I am talking the part of NY up past Watertown and north, They get their power from the the Nuclear plant east of Toronto.
a lot of the power from N F goes down state to NYC and that area.
Heck you would think people in Western NY would pay lower power bills because N F is right here but no believe me we don't get a break we pay higher bills then a lot of places down state.
 
ULTRA MAGA said:
Doesn't have to be cheap.
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Consumers do not buy steel. It is producers who buy steel as an input, and then sell cars or whatever to consumers. If American car makers have to pay extra for steel, they will be less competitive.

Countries like Brazil and India tried high tariffs. They definitely develop industries to cover all the consumers needs, but those industries produce massively overpriced, poorly made products. It cuts them off from the export market. Why would anyone outside of Brazil ever buy a Brazilian car?
 
Walt said:
Why would anyone outside of Brazil ever buy a Brazilian car?
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In 2023, Brazil exported around 406,000 car units. However, for precise current figures or updates beyond 2023, the latest data shows a decline in exports with 354,200 units shipped through October 2024, indicating an annual decrease compared to the previous year. Given these trends, Brazil's car exports for the full year of 2024 might be slightly lower than 2023's figures unless there's a significant uptick in the last months of the year.


@Grok
 
Walt said:
Countries like Brazil and India tried high tariffs. They definitely develop industries to cover all the consumers needs, but those industries produce massively overpriced, poorly made products.
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Brazil and India have employed high tariffs as part of their trade policies:

  • Brazil has been known for protecting its domestic market with relatively high tariffs, especially in sectors like automobiles, where tariffs can be as high as 35%. Brazil has also implemented measures like import quotas and higher tariffs on steel products to protect local industries from international competition. For instance, there's mention of Brazil considering tariffs up to 25% on specific steel products to manage import levels and protect domestic producers. Furthermore, Brazil has reduced tariffs in some instances to combat inflation, showing a nuanced approach to tariff policies.
  • India has also utilized high tariffs to shield its local industries. Tariffs in India have been raised across various product categories, including automobiles where tariffs can reach 60%, as part of efforts to promote domestic manufacturing under initiatives like "Make in India". There's evidence of India increasing its average tariffs over time, with specific mentions of tariffs on imported goods like automobiles being significantly high.

Both countries have used tariffs strategically, sometimes increasing them to protect local industries and at other times adjusting them to respond to economic pressures like inflation or to foster diplomatic trade relations. This approach reflects a balance between protectionism and liberalization, depending on economic goals and political considerations.


The characterization of products from Brazil and India as "massively overpriced" and "poorly made" can be an oversimplification and might not reflect the full spectrum of their industrial output. Here's a more nuanced look:

  • Brazil:
    • Automotive, Agriculture, and Mining: Brazil has significant industries in these sectors. For instance, Brazilian agriculture is known for its efficiency and high-quality exports, especially in commodities like soybeans, beef, and coffee, which are not typically seen as overpriced or poorly made. In the automotive sector, Brazil manufactures vehicles for both domestic use and export, with companies like Fiat, Volkswagen, and Ford having significant operations there. Quality can vary, but there are many competitive and well-regarded products.
    • Consumer Goods and Electronics: There might be instances where Brazilian-made products, especially in less regulated markets or smaller manufacturers, might not match global standards in terms of quality or price competitiveness. However, this is not universally true across all sectors.
  • India:
    • Pharmaceuticals: India is often called the "pharmacy of the world" due to its production of affordable generic drugs, which are generally seen as cost-effective rather than overpriced. The quality of these generics is monitored, but there have been cases of substandard products, prompting regulatory action.
    • IT and Services: India's IT sector is globally competitive, providing high-quality services at often more affordable rates than in Western countries, which contradicts the notion of "overpriced and poorly made."
    • Consumer Goods: Here, the situation can be mixed. India produces a wide range of goods from high-quality textiles to electronics. While there are certainly low-quality, inexpensive products in the market, there are also premium brands and products that compete internationally. Price points can vary widely due to diverse market segments.
    • Automobiles and Manufacturing: India has a growing automobile industry with brands like Tata Motors and Mahindra producing vehicles for both domestic and international markets. Quality has improved over the years, though there's still a perception gap in some segments.
To describe industries in Brazil and India as producing "massively overpriced, poorly made products" would be an overgeneralization. Both countries have sectors where they excel in terms of quality and cost-efficiency, as well as areas where improvements are still underway. Quality and pricing can vary significantly depending on the specific industry, brand, and product in question.





@Grok
 
Diogenes said:
In 2023, Brazil exported around 406,000 car units. However, for precise current figures or updates beyond 2023, the latest data shows a decline in exports with 354,200 units shipped through October 2024, indicating an annual decrease compared to the previous year. Given these trends, Brazil's car exports for the full year of 2024 might be slightly lower than 2023's figures unless there's a significant uptick in the last months of the year.


@Grok
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I am sure that after trump is done with the USA, we will be every bit the equal of Brazil. 🙄
 
Walt said:
I am sure that after trump is done with the USA, we will be every bit the equal of Brazil.
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​
It's unprecedented for a developed economy like the US to regress to the level of an emerging market like Brazil due to policy alone. Historical examples of economic decline are usually tied to broader systemic failures (e.g., hyperinflation in Weimar Germany or socialist Venezuela's collapse).


  • There are numerous checks and balances, including Congress, the Federal Reserve, and public opinion, which influence or counteract presidential policies.

Given these points, while Trump's policies might have significant impacts, suggesting that they could single-handedly reduce the US economy to the level of Brazil's would be an oversimplification. Such a scenario would require an unprecedented combination of policy missteps, external shocks, and perhaps systemic issues within the US economy that have not yet manifested to such an extent.

Therefore, while it's possible to critique or predict impacts of specific policies, reducing such a complex scenario to a simple cause-and-effect prediction overlooks many variables. It would be more realistic to discuss potential negative impacts in specific sectors or areas rather than a wholesale economic decline to match Brazil's current economic status.

​

@Grok
 
Walt said:
Would you rather live in the USA or Brazil?
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Is this your attempt at a false dichotomy?

A false dichotomy, also known as a false dilemma or false binary, is a logical fallacy that presents only two options as the only possibilities when, in fact, there are more. This fallacy oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives, often presenting the viewer with only two absolute choices when a spectrum of options might exist. To avoid making a false dichotomy, ensure you have considered all potential options and not just limited yourself to two.
 
Walt said:
Consumers do not buy steel. It is producers who buy steel as an input, and then sell cars or whatever to consumers. If American car makers have to pay extra for steel, they will be less competitive.

Countries like Brazil and India tried high tariffs. They definitely develop industries to cover all the consumers needs, but those industries produce massively overpriced, poorly made products. It cuts them off from the export market. Why would anyone outside of Brazil ever buy a Brazilian car?
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USA is not India or Brazil Walter

India tried breeding rats too and were very good at it.
 
Tbird19482 said:
No I am talking the part of NY up past Watertown and north, They get their power from the the Nuclear plant east of Toronto.
a lot of the power from N F goes down state to NYC and that area.
Heck you would think people in Western NY would pay lower power bills because N F is right here but no believe me we don't get a break we pay higher bills then a lot of places down state.
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NYC uses fossil fuel for generation, which makes no sense. They should have solar panels on every rooftop. We have solar farms cropping up everywhere now, but otherwise our power comes from N.F.
 
ULTRA MAGA said:
USA is not India or Brazil Walter

India tried breeding rats too and were very good at it.
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Just a reminder, you are the one recommending we give up on the policies that have made America great, and start using the policies that made Brazil and India what they are.
 
Guno צְבִי said:
Some steelmakers in Canada and Mexico are telling customers that they are refusing new orders to the US on concerns that President Donald Trump soon will reimpose duties.

Canada’s Stelco has been telling US-based consumers it is pausing sales quotes, according to a person familiar with the matter. Mexico-based steel suppliers also stopped taking orders for material this week as they await potential action from Trump, according to Flack Global Metals, a large buyer.

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:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: We are so fucking cooked
 
Walt said:
Just a reminder, you are the one recommending we give up on the policies that have made America great, and start using the policies that made Brazil and India what they are.
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What policies are those, specifically?

The development of Brazil and India into their current economic and political states has been influenced by a range of specific policies over the years.

Here's a detailed look at the policies that have shaped these nations:

Brazil:
  • Import Substitution Industrialization (ISI): From the 1930s to the 1980s, Brazil adopted policies aimed at reducing foreign dependency through industrialization. This included high tariffs on imports to protect domestic industries, which helped in creating industrial capabilities but also led to economic inefficiencies over time.
  • Real Plan (1993): This plan was pivotal in stabilizing Brazil's economy by introducing the Real as a new currency initially pegged to the US dollar, which helped control hyperinflation. It also included measures for trade liberalization and privatization of state enterprises, setting a foundation for economic recovery and growth.
  • Bolsa Família Program: Initiated under President Lula da Silva, this cash transfer program aimed at reducing poverty by providing financial aid to Brazil's poorest families, conditional on children's school attendance and vaccinations. It significantly contributed to poverty reduction and social mobility.
  • Environmental Policies: Brazil's approach to the Amazon rainforest and environmental regulations has varied, with recent policies under different administrations affecting international relations and investment, especially regarding deforestation.
  • Tax and Fiscal Reforms: The country has seen various attempts at tax reform, with the latest being a significant overhaul of indirect taxes to improve the business environment, although challenges persist with the complexity of the tax system.


    India:

  • License Raj: Before liberalization in the 1990s, India's economy was heavily regulated through the License Raj system, which controlled production, investment, and trade. This policy led to a bureaucratic and slow-moving economy but was crucial in fostering some industrial base.
  • Economic Liberalization (1991): Triggered by a severe balance of payments crisis, India undertook massive economic reforms under Prime Minister Narasimha Rao and Finance Minister Manmohan Singh. This included liberalizing trade, reducing import tariffs, deregulating industries, and encouraging foreign investment, which propelled India into a phase of high economic growth.
  • National Rural Employment Guarantee Act (NREGA): Launched in 2005, this act guarantees 100 days of wage employment in a financial year to every rural household whose adult members volunteer to do unskilled manual work. It's aimed at alleviating poverty and unemployment in rural India.
  • Make in India: Initiated in 2014 by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, this initiative aims to facilitate investment, foster innovation, enhance skill development, protect intellectual property, and build best-in-class manufacturing infrastructure. It has had mixed results but has been pivotal in changing the narrative around manufacturing in India.
  • Digital India: This policy focuses on transforming India into a digitally empowered society and knowledge economy. It includes initiatives like Digital Locker, e-education, e-health, and BharatNet, aiming at digital inclusion and transformation of governance.


These policies have had profound impacts on the socio-economic landscapes of Brazil and India, influencing their roles in global trade, their domestic industries, poverty levels, and their overall economic trajectory. However, each policy also comes with its set of criticisms and challenges, such as corruption, implementation issues, or unintended economic consequences.


@Grok
 
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