Capitalism Has Destroyed / Is Destroying American Family Values
- Thread starter PoliTalker
- Start date
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello evince,
My difficulty in answering that is that the term evil is subjective to morality, which is not the same for everyone.
No, I have not read about any torture. What they are doing is bad enough without trying to turn it into something else.
What the Nazis did was far worse than simply separating children from their parents. Your comparison is an exaggeration. That is not helpful. Remember. Our goal is a united America, not a bitterly divided one.
My difficulty in answering that is that the term evil is subjective to morality, which is not the same for everyone.
No, I have not read about any torture. What they are doing is bad enough without trying to turn it into something else.
What the Nazis did was far worse than simply separating children from their parents. Your comparison is an exaggeration. That is not helpful. Remember. Our goal is a united America, not a bitterly divided one.
Last edited:
evince
Truthmatters
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello evince,
You should know better than to believe anything the Daily Caller says. That's such a heavily slanted site. It should be routinely rejected: Biased site.
Republicans are divided on the issue. While it is true that more of them support it than oppose it, it does not have universal support. And since Republicans are so divided on it, and Democrats are strongly against it, that means the majority of the nation is against it.
I would not be surprised if the PR battle the Trump administration is conducting manages to win over more Republicans to the side of cruelty as time goes by, but initially at least, Trump has managed to turn off many of his supporters. It's hard to convince caring people to support cruelty.
Crossing the border is a misdemeanor. You don't take away somebody's children for a misdemeanor.
You should know better than to believe anything the Daily Caller says. That's such a heavily slanted site. It should be routinely rejected: Biased site.
Republicans are divided on the issue. While it is true that more of them support it than oppose it, it does not have universal support. And since Republicans are so divided on it, and Democrats are strongly against it, that means the majority of the nation is against it.
I would not be surprised if the PR battle the Trump administration is conducting manages to win over more Republicans to the side of cruelty as time goes by, but initially at least, Trump has managed to turn off many of his supporters. It's hard to convince caring people to support cruelty.
Crossing the border is a misdemeanor. You don't take away somebody's children for a misdemeanor.
I think Trump is going to have to cave on this issue. It simply is too disgusting a thing to champion...even for Trump supporters.
We'll see.
OscarLevant
New member
I agree.
Capitalism, without socialism, will devour itself
Socialism, without capitalism, will collapse under it's own weight.
So, let there be Capitalism for wants, and Socialism for needs
Wants = stuff you would like to have, cars, lipstick, golf gear, clothes, goods, services, etc.
Needs = Police, fire, Defense, Healthcare/social services.
Wants are what I call the positive markets, these are things you would love to have and own.
needs are more in the negative markets. So, you dont want to get robbed, so you need police to deal with it.
You don't want to get attacked by a foreign country, so you need a military to deal with it. You don't want your house
to burn down, but if it catches fire, you need a fire dept to help you.
Similarily, you dont want to get sick, but you need a doctor to help you get well.
So, the negative markets are stuff you don't want, but have to hire someone to help you when things you don't want happen to you.
Now, there are grey areas in the negative markets, and since they are more boutique, in nature, such as legal representation, or perhaps dental work or cosmetic work, these could be served in the wants category. Grey area stuff can be sorted out.
Where does the pendulum rest? It rests only upon reaching dead center.
I just wanted to add a few references and books to this thread. Read John Ralston Saul's book quoted first if you want a mental challenge. For the right wing snowflakes who somehow enjoy being played by rich elites skip these references, Fox, Trump, and conservative media will tell you what to think.
"Capitalism is the ownership and use of the concrete but dynamic elements in a society - what is commonly known as the means of production. A capitalist is someone who produces more capital through the production of the means he owns. This necessitates the periodic reinvestment of part of the capital earned into the repair, modernization and expansion of the means. Capitalism is therefore the ownership of an abstraction called capital, rendered concrete by its ownership of the means of production, which through actual production creates new capital.... However, capitalism as conceived today tends to revolve around something called the profit motive, even though profit is neither a cause of capitalism nor at the heart of the capitalist action. Profit is a useful result of the process, nothing more. As for the ownership of the means of production, this has been superseded by their management. And yet, to manage is to administer, which is a bureaucratic function. Alternately, there is a growing reliance upon the use of capital itself to produce new capital. But that is speculation, not production. Much of the development of the means of production is now rejected as unprofitable and, frankly, beneath the dignity of the modern manager, who would rather leave such labour and factory-intensive "dirty" work to Third World societies. Finally , the contemporary idea of capitalism grandly presents "service" as its new sophisticated manifestation. But the selling of one's own skills is not a capitalist art. And most of the jobs being created by the service industries are with the exception of the high-technology sector descendants of the pre-eighteenth-century commerce in trade and services." p360 'Voltaire's Bas_tards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West' John Ralston Saul
"Historian Phillips-Fein traces the hidden history of the Reagan revolution to a coterie of business executives, including General Electric official and Reagan mentor Lemuel Boulware, who saw labor unions, government regulation, high taxes and welfare spending as dire threats to their profits and power. From the 1930s onward, the author argues, they provided the money, organization and fervor for a decades-long war against New Deal liberalism—funding campaigns, think tanks, magazines and lobbying groups, and indoctrinating employees in the virtues of unfettered capitalism." http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Han...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247845984&sr=1-1
See also Dark Money: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27833494-dark-money
"...In his classic study of mid 19th century American labor, Norman Ware observes that the imposition of industrial capitalism and its values 'was repugnant to an astonishingly large section of the earlier American community'. The primary reason was 'the decline of the industrial worker as a person', the 'degradation' and 'psychological change' that followed from the 'loss of dignity and independence' and of democratic rights and freedoms. These reactions were vividly expressed in the working class literature, often by women, who played a prominent role despite their subordination in the general society." Introduction Alex Carey 'Taking The Risk Out Of Democracy'
"As an Anglo European white guy from a very long line of white guys, I want to thank all the brown, black, yellow and red people for a marvelous three-century joy ride. During the past 300 years of the industrial age, as Europeans, and later as Americans, we have managed to consume infinitely more than we ever produced, thanks to colonialism, crooked deals with despotic potentates and good old gunboats and grapeshot. Yes, we have lived, and still live, extravagant lifestyles far above the rest of you. And so, my sincere thanks to all of you folks around the world working in sweatshops, or living on two bucks a day, even though you sit on vast oil deposits. And to those outside my window here in Mexico this morning, the two guys pruning the retired gringoes hedges with what look like pocket knives, I say, keep up the good work. It's the world's cheap labor guys like you - the black, brown and yellow folks who take it up the shorts - who make capitalism look like it actually works. So keep on humping. Remember: We've got predator drones." Joe Bageant http://coldtype.net/Assets.10/Pdfs/0710.Joe.Doomsday.pdf
"Capitalism is the ownership and use of the concrete but dynamic elements in a society - what is commonly known as the means of production. A capitalist is someone who produces more capital through the production of the means he owns. This necessitates the periodic reinvestment of part of the capital earned into the repair, modernization and expansion of the means. Capitalism is therefore the ownership of an abstraction called capital, rendered concrete by its ownership of the means of production, which through actual production creates new capital.... However, capitalism as conceived today tends to revolve around something called the profit motive, even though profit is neither a cause of capitalism nor at the heart of the capitalist action. Profit is a useful result of the process, nothing more. As for the ownership of the means of production, this has been superseded by their management. And yet, to manage is to administer, which is a bureaucratic function. Alternately, there is a growing reliance upon the use of capital itself to produce new capital. But that is speculation, not production. Much of the development of the means of production is now rejected as unprofitable and, frankly, beneath the dignity of the modern manager, who would rather leave such labour and factory-intensive "dirty" work to Third World societies. Finally , the contemporary idea of capitalism grandly presents "service" as its new sophisticated manifestation. But the selling of one's own skills is not a capitalist art. And most of the jobs being created by the service industries are with the exception of the high-technology sector descendants of the pre-eighteenth-century commerce in trade and services." p360 'Voltaire's Bas_tards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West' John Ralston Saul
"Historian Phillips-Fein traces the hidden history of the Reagan revolution to a coterie of business executives, including General Electric official and Reagan mentor Lemuel Boulware, who saw labor unions, government regulation, high taxes and welfare spending as dire threats to their profits and power. From the 1930s onward, the author argues, they provided the money, organization and fervor for a decades-long war against New Deal liberalism—funding campaigns, think tanks, magazines and lobbying groups, and indoctrinating employees in the virtues of unfettered capitalism." http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Han...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247845984&sr=1-1
See also Dark Money: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27833494-dark-money
"...In his classic study of mid 19th century American labor, Norman Ware observes that the imposition of industrial capitalism and its values 'was repugnant to an astonishingly large section of the earlier American community'. The primary reason was 'the decline of the industrial worker as a person', the 'degradation' and 'psychological change' that followed from the 'loss of dignity and independence' and of democratic rights and freedoms. These reactions were vividly expressed in the working class literature, often by women, who played a prominent role despite their subordination in the general society." Introduction Alex Carey 'Taking The Risk Out Of Democracy'
"As an Anglo European white guy from a very long line of white guys, I want to thank all the brown, black, yellow and red people for a marvelous three-century joy ride. During the past 300 years of the industrial age, as Europeans, and later as Americans, we have managed to consume infinitely more than we ever produced, thanks to colonialism, crooked deals with despotic potentates and good old gunboats and grapeshot. Yes, we have lived, and still live, extravagant lifestyles far above the rest of you. And so, my sincere thanks to all of you folks around the world working in sweatshops, or living on two bucks a day, even though you sit on vast oil deposits. And to those outside my window here in Mexico this morning, the two guys pruning the retired gringoes hedges with what look like pocket knives, I say, keep up the good work. It's the world's cheap labor guys like you - the black, brown and yellow folks who take it up the shorts - who make capitalism look like it actually works. So keep on humping. Remember: We've got predator drones." Joe Bageant http://coldtype.net/Assets.10/Pdfs/0710.Joe.Doomsday.pdf
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello and welcome OscarLevant,
Well put.
Completely logical.
No individual should have to face off with the daunting power of a giant multinational corporation for life and death NEEDS.
The power mismatch is glaringly favored for the power elites, and it is wrong to allow that.
Not in this day and age of amazing advancements. Not when we have this powerful nation which we set up to promote the welfare of WE THE PEOPLE.
If we have not provided needs to all who are lacking, then we are UNCIVILIZED. What we have now promotes the welfare of THEY THE CORPORATIONS and THEY THE RICH. (And that's wrong.)
If every individual needs something, such as health care, that is something we can all get organized to provide for ourselves. We should direct our government to provide that.
Our government can easily do that. We have the power. That is what we should be doing. Let the obsessed wealth-seekers seek their wealth elsewhere.
It only makes sense. It is nuts for an individual to try to go out and get his own health care. You can't do that very well on an individual scale; or even a family. But if we all pay a little, that adds up to a lot. That can pay for massive government organizations charged with delivering what we all need.
It makes no sense to allow powerful people to ration these services out to the highest payer.
It is logical that health care would be far more affordable if we eliminate all profits from it. Only the cost of doing the work is all we should have to pay. There is no place for profits for the super-rich in health care. We can't afford that any more.
And when we do it through government, then those organizations answer to us, We The People. Nobody needs to be making any profits from that. Health care is not something that should be done for profit at all. If these powerful people can run giant corporations for health care, they can run them for industries which sell discretionary products. Nondiscretionary products and services are logically delivered through socialism.
Capitalism is all wrong for health care. It just makes sense to use socialism for health care.
When an individual requires health care, that individual often needs immediate attention. There is no time to shop around for price and quality. It needs to be all in place prior to the need. Logically, that is not a good application of the free market system. It's just all wrong for that. You don't want a health care provider holding out for as much profit 'as the market will bear' before they provide what is often life-saving care.
I find it reprehensible that our current system seeks to pressure it's customers for as much as they will, or can, pay for life-saving services.
It is barbaric to have people suffering and dying because they can't afford the technology which would help them, as some have so much wealth they couldn't spend it all in a million lifetimes.
Health care for profit is BARBARIC!!!
That is just so messed up. And then, to know that some of these super-rich people got that way by 'working the market' in return for providing much-needed care, including withholding that care from those who need it most. That is simply reprehensible. It amounts to profiting from suffering. If we, as the human race, are no better than that then we have a long way to go.
I say the time has come for us to go there.
We need to get RID of this current backward-thinking greedy ruling class government-for-the-rich and get back to the concept of government FOR THE PEOPLE.
These rich and powerful people have taken control and bled our nation's resources DRY to make themselves RICH, and I for one and TIRED OF IT.
And I bet I am not alone.
It is TIME.
TIME'S UP.
Time for WE THE PEOPLE to rise up and take control, because the ones who have control are not looking out for our best interests. They serve the rich.
There is NOTHING WRONG WITH SOCIALISM. Socialism is simply a tool, like capitalism.
We need to have the correct balance of socialism and capitalism so that we can have the BEST Of BOTH as we regulate markets to avoid the pitfalls of each; and together, provide a good life for all.
The plight of American Families stands in the balance.
Well put.
Completely logical.
No individual should have to face off with the daunting power of a giant multinational corporation for life and death NEEDS.
The power mismatch is glaringly favored for the power elites, and it is wrong to allow that.
Not in this day and age of amazing advancements. Not when we have this powerful nation which we set up to promote the welfare of WE THE PEOPLE.
If we have not provided needs to all who are lacking, then we are UNCIVILIZED. What we have now promotes the welfare of THEY THE CORPORATIONS and THEY THE RICH. (And that's wrong.)
If every individual needs something, such as health care, that is something we can all get organized to provide for ourselves. We should direct our government to provide that.
Our government can easily do that. We have the power. That is what we should be doing. Let the obsessed wealth-seekers seek their wealth elsewhere.
It only makes sense. It is nuts for an individual to try to go out and get his own health care. You can't do that very well on an individual scale; or even a family. But if we all pay a little, that adds up to a lot. That can pay for massive government organizations charged with delivering what we all need.
It makes no sense to allow powerful people to ration these services out to the highest payer.
It is logical that health care would be far more affordable if we eliminate all profits from it. Only the cost of doing the work is all we should have to pay. There is no place for profits for the super-rich in health care. We can't afford that any more.
And when we do it through government, then those organizations answer to us, We The People. Nobody needs to be making any profits from that. Health care is not something that should be done for profit at all. If these powerful people can run giant corporations for health care, they can run them for industries which sell discretionary products. Nondiscretionary products and services are logically delivered through socialism.
Capitalism is all wrong for health care. It just makes sense to use socialism for health care.
When an individual requires health care, that individual often needs immediate attention. There is no time to shop around for price and quality. It needs to be all in place prior to the need. Logically, that is not a good application of the free market system. It's just all wrong for that. You don't want a health care provider holding out for as much profit 'as the market will bear' before they provide what is often life-saving care.
I find it reprehensible that our current system seeks to pressure it's customers for as much as they will, or can, pay for life-saving services.
It is barbaric to have people suffering and dying because they can't afford the technology which would help them, as some have so much wealth they couldn't spend it all in a million lifetimes.
Health care for profit is BARBARIC!!!
That is just so messed up. And then, to know that some of these super-rich people got that way by 'working the market' in return for providing much-needed care, including withholding that care from those who need it most. That is simply reprehensible. It amounts to profiting from suffering. If we, as the human race, are no better than that then we have a long way to go.
I say the time has come for us to go there.
We need to get RID of this current backward-thinking greedy ruling class government-for-the-rich and get back to the concept of government FOR THE PEOPLE.
These rich and powerful people have taken control and bled our nation's resources DRY to make themselves RICH, and I for one and TIRED OF IT.
And I bet I am not alone.
It is TIME.
TIME'S UP.
Time for WE THE PEOPLE to rise up and take control, because the ones who have control are not looking out for our best interests. They serve the rich.
There is NOTHING WRONG WITH SOCIALISM. Socialism is simply a tool, like capitalism.
We need to have the correct balance of socialism and capitalism so that we can have the BEST Of BOTH as we regulate markets to avoid the pitfalls of each; and together, provide a good life for all.
The plight of American Families stands in the balance.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello midcan5,
ZING!
Nice one.
For the most part this is true. I believe this is speaking of the very high level capitalists, not the entrepreneur or sole proprietor type of capitalism which conservatives so lovingly envision when they carry on about 'the profit motive.' For most workers, and this includes most executives as well, profit is not the reason to work hard. Fear is the reason. It is fear of not reaching whatever goal has been laid out by the high level capitalists, and the fear of losing one's job if that goal is not achieved or surpassed. Capitalism mostly promotes the FEAR MOTIVE, not the profit motive.
ZING!
Nice one.
For the most part this is true. I believe this is speaking of the very high level capitalists, not the entrepreneur or sole proprietor type of capitalism which conservatives so lovingly envision when they carry on about 'the profit motive.' For most workers, and this includes most executives as well, profit is not the reason to work hard. Fear is the reason. It is fear of not reaching whatever goal has been laid out by the high level capitalists, and the fear of losing one's job if that goal is not achieved or surpassed. Capitalism mostly promotes the FEAR MOTIVE, not the profit motive.
Boris The Animal
It's Just Boris!
Fixed for truth.
evince
Truthmatters
its all over the news
Trump has folded.
I knew he would.
He allowed his mouth to write a check his ass could not cash. And with an ass like his...that was quite a mistake.
What post is that, evince? I'd like to read it.
The psychological damage done to children through being taken from their parents is profound and can be permanent. Trump is using children as pawns, but they are real thinking caring people being dragged across the country and held in pens. They will generate not trusting authorities and police. They likely become withdrawn and silent. it is cruel.
PoliTalker
Diversity Makes Greatness
Hello Frank,
Yeah, I'd like to see that quote too. It's news to me. I disagree with nearly everything the president does or says. But then, I like a president that tells the truth and has some morals. I don't think a ruthless business dirty dealer who loads debt upon others as he fills his own pockets makes a good president.
Yeah, I'd like to see that quote too. It's news to me. I disagree with nearly everything the president does or says. But then, I like a president that tells the truth and has some morals. I don't think a ruthless business dirty dealer who loads debt upon others as he fills his own pockets makes a good president.