Confederate Statues

noise said:
I like the idea of historical commisions making the decision as to whether to remove/stay or relocate the CSA statues.

I called for a national commission, or state by state a long time ago -it takes it out of the political realm

for ex. there is one in Richmond that honors the service of Robert E, Lee - but I read about 2 put up during Jim Crow that were right outside of a slave bartering building in Memphis (obviously supporting slavery)
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I don't.

 
CFM said:
So vandalism is OK as long as you can justify it in your simple mind?
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Do you imagine I said vandalism is OK?

What's positive about someone being admitted to UNC due to affirmative action?
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You misunderstood. This was a reference to the end of affirmative action for whites -- before segregation ended, even the least qualified white applicant had an infinitely better chance of being admitted than the most qualified black one.

I have an idea. Why don't you lead the way in doing what you propose and see how far you get.
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I am leading the way, by laying out the idea. However, I'm not an artist, so I wouldn't do a good job at actually designing the caps for these monuments.

What about a piece of metal, an inanimate object, scares you so much?
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Perhaps you could answer that question -- something seems to frighten you very much about the kinds of capping monuments I have proposed. What is it that has you so scared?
 
CFM said:
You mean tenured history professors that have a propensity to be left leaning?
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Since the highly educated have a strong tendency to lean left, tenured professors do tend to go that way. That's the problem with reality having a well-known liberal bias. But I don't see that as an argument in favor of affirmative action for less accomplished right-leaning people, do you?

That's how you lefties operate. If the results don't work in your favor, your first, last, and only thought is that it was a faulty process. You can't accept being told no or not getting it your way.
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That's an odd argument to hear from a conservative. I recall that when Barack Obama won the presidency handily --twice-- right-wingers argued the process was faulty from the outset, due to their weird theory that he was actually born in Kenya.
 
Oneuli said:
Do you imagine I said vandalism is OK?



You misunderstood. This was a reference to the end of affirmative action for whites -- before segregation ended, even the least qualified white applicant had an infinitely better chance of being admitted than the most qualified black one.



I am leading the way, by laying out the idea. However, I'm not an artist, so I wouldn't do a good job at actually designing the caps for these monuments.



Perhaps you could answer that question -- something seems to frighten you very much about the kinds of capping monuments I have proposed. What is it that has you so scared?
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I don't have to imagine. You support this type of vandalism.

There is no such thing as affirmative action for whites. Never has been. There's also no such thing as white privilege. Never has been. Both of those are nothing more than excuses for blacks who simply can't perform to the level of white.

Saying someone else should do something isn't leading the way. That's called hiding behind the scenes.

I'm not the one that wants to hide something I'm afraid of and fear. Your proposal proves you are.
 
CFM said:
I don't have to imagine. You support this type of vandalism.
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What makes you think that?

There is no such thing as affirmative action for whites.
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There was in the era of segregation, which is what we were talking about. Before that first class with African Americans at UNC, there'd never been a black person admitted. Do you imagine that's because every single white applicant had a better application than every single black one? Of course not. It's because attending the school was a white privilege, and blacks were not even considered. The end of that was something worthy of celebration, which is why I proposed making an monument to that, to cover that monument celebrating a losing white supremacist insurrection.

Saying someone else should do something isn't leading the way
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It is, indeed. I suspect you'd see that if it were, say, Robert E. Lee calling for his men to take a ridge, while not charging up that ridge himself.

I'm not the one that wants to hide something I'm afraid of and fear.
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You seem to be very frightened by the replacement monuments I suggested. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why they scare you so badly.
 
Oneuli said:
Since the highly educated have a strong tendency to lean left, tenured professors do tend to go that way. That's the problem with reality having a well-known liberal bias. But I don't see that as an argument in favor of affirmative action for less accomplished right-leaning people, do you?



That's an odd argument to hear from a conservative. I recall that when Barack Obama won the presidency handily --twice-- right-wingers argued the process was faulty from the outset, due to their weird theory that he was actually born in Kenya.
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Someone whose entire life has been spent in academia doesn't mean they're educated. They live in a world outside of reality. It's like the blind person describing the elephant having only felt one part. All they've seen in that world and it's far from what the real world is like. Perhaps that why they stay in it. They couldn't survive outside of it if their life depended on it.

I recall that Obama being black is the only reason people like you voted for him. Interesting how so many more blacks voted in 2008 and 2012 when a black was running. What's also interesting is that many of them who voted for the first time in their lives could have voted in several elections prior to that but suddenly decided to do their civic duty when a black was running. What more interesting than that is when a black wasn't running for President, the numbers of blacks declined sharply to somewhat the same levels as before a black ran.

Then we have the guilt ridden white bleeding heart vote that got a warm, fuzzy feeling having voted for the black guy.
 
Oneuli said:
It's tempting to immediately condemn those who illegally pull down confederate statues, but it's important to remember the context of that vandalism. At least in North Carolina, a law at the state level has made it effectively impossible for communities to remove such statues by lawful means. Even if a university is uncomfortable with subjecting its students to a monument to white supremacy, they cannot take it down or even move it to a less prominent place without a change of the law at the state level. Similarly, if a community of color doesn't like having to see a defender of slavery honored in their midst, they cannot protect themselves from that eyesore through legal action at the community or even city level. By denying people in those locales usable legal tools for addressing offensive statues, the state has effectively invited extra-legal action by those communities.

Here's an idea for an alternative. As I understand it, the law was worded such that it only made it illegal to take the statue down or to move it to a less prominent place. If that's right, you could simply cover it up. The left has a lot of really talented artists. So, just have some design structures that can be built around the offensive ones, hiding them completely. That could include practical things like little clock towers or obelisks for posting placards. Or it could be other monuments, designed to fit snugly (and maybe irreversibly) over the offensive ones and to send a very different message.

For example, put up a big pedestal, covering the offensive statue, and on top of that put a statue to John Adams Hyman, the first African American Congress member in North Carolina. Or have it feature statues of several black students, representing the first black students at UNC, following court-ordered desegregation. Then the statue hasn't been brought down or moved, so nothing illegal has happened, but it's been transformed from a celebration of white supremacist treason to a celebration of something positive.
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As always.....the left never sees any violation of the first amendment in denying those they disagree with their freedom of speech or expression. This (wink, wink) suggestion would be like taking the Gettysburg addresses and changing some of the most dramatic and unambiguous language in the text in order to make it an endorsement of slavery.

What I find entertaining is the fact the left wishes to "tear down" the free expression rights of some claiming these symbols of expression are offensive and hateful to some....even it that some (wink, wink) is a single individual....then on the other hand....LOOK AT THE STATUE THEY ARE DEFENDING as a 1st amendment right of expression...in Little Rock Arkansas. Snowflake SJW's :palm: The RULE OF LAW only applies to those in agreement with their ideology. Remove or silence the right of free expression.....and you set the table for Totalitarian Fascism. Reality: Even HATE SPEECH is protected under the US RULE OF LAW. Why? Because some view TRUTH as an expression of hate. These southern statues represent nothing but the reality of HISTORY ACTUAL.....nothing more. Deny History...…..Deny reality.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX57oTXw7yY
 
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Oneuli said:
There was in the era of segregation, which is what we were talking about. Before that first class with African Americans at UNC, there'd never been a black person admitted. Do you imagine that's because every single white applicant had a better application than every single black one? Of course not. It's because attending the school was a white privilege, and blacks were not even considered.
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The above is completely incorrect, in that blacks were banned from attending. Thus blacks couldn't attend.

During the era of segregation blacks were not allowed to attend white schools! But there were black schools and colleges. (not saying that was right or fair, only that they existed.)


"North Carolina's Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs)
Prior to the conclusion of the Civil War in 1865, the majority of African Americans in the United States were enslaved persons living in the southern states. Education for African Americans was sparse, especially in the South with laws such as North Carolina's that prohibited teaching enslaved persons to read and write. It was a rare occurrence for an African American to be literate. While there were a few schools dedicated to African American education in the North prior to the Civil War, the first college available to African Americans in the South was Shaw University, which opened its doors in 1865. A number of institutions dedicated specifically for the education of African Americans were founded in the era immediately following the Civil War and others followed when segregation limited equal access to education. These schools are often known as Historically Black Colleges and Universitites, or "HBCUs".

North Carolina has twelve historically black colleges and universities, including the oldest in the South, Raleigh's Shaw University, founded in 1865, and North Carolina's newest HBCU, North Carolina Central University, founded in 1910 in Durham. Ten of these schools continue to operate today."
https://www.ncpedia.org/education/hbcu?page=1
 
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