Confederate Statues

signalmankenneth said:
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Just remember, Donald Trump is temporary ... more so than any statue
 
Stargazer said:
Doesn't matter. No one notices them anyway and haven't for decades.
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Wrong.

The Silent Sam racist monument on the UNC campus has been the subject of decades of efforts to tear it down. Just because you don't pay attention to things doesn't mean those things don't happen.

Get over yourself.
 
Oneuli said:
It's tempting to immediately condemn those who illegally pull down confederate statues, but it's important to remember the context of that vandalism. At least in North Carolina, a law at the state level has made it effectively impossible for communities to remove such statues by lawful means. Even if a university is uncomfortable with subjecting its students to a monument to white supremacy, they cannot take it down or even move it to a less prominent place without a change of the law at the state level. Similarly, if a community of color doesn't like having to see a defender of slavery honored in their midst, they cannot protect themselves from that eyesore through legal action at the community or even city level. By denying people in those locales usable legal tools for addressing offensive statues, the state has effectively invited extra-legal action by those communities.

Here's an idea for an alternative. As I understand it, the law was worded such that it only made it illegal to take the statue down or to move it to a less prominent place. If that's right, you could simply cover it up. The left has a lot of really talented artists. So, just have some design structures that can be built around the offensive ones, hiding them completely. That could include practical things like little clock towers or obelisks for posting placards. Or it could be other monuments, designed to fit snugly (and maybe irreversibly) over the offensive ones and to send a very different message.

For example, put up a big pedestal, covering the offensive statue, and on top of that put a statue to John Adams Hyman, the first African American Congress member in North Carolina. Or have it feature statues of several black students, representing the first black students at UNC, following court-ordered desegregation. Then the statue hasn't been brought down or moved, so nothing illegal has happened, but it's been transformed from a celebration of white supremacist treason to a celebration of something positive.
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It's a lot easier to just remove the offensive monument.
 
LV426 said:
The only historical perspective is that these are monuments to white supremacy and racism. They contain and embody no historical value or significance.

THEY SHOULD ALL BE DESTROYED. All of them. No exceptions.
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I think it's more than that, or maybe something different then that. It's cultural and heritage. Museums should be their destination.
 
LV426 said:
How is tearing down statues to racists and traitors "erasing history"?

Do books not exist?
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You think tearing statues down representative of events hundreds of years ago will "make it go away", the mindset of a big blubbering baby.

It changes nothing.
 
LV426 said:
Wrong.

The Silent Sam racist monument on the UNC campus has been the subject of decades of efforts to tear it down. Just because you don't pay attention to things doesn't mean those things don't happen.

Get over yourself.
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Telling no one cared until "now".

LOL

No one even knew what they were until some crybaby libs gave them marching orders.
 
Stargazer said:
Telling no one cared until "now".

LOL

No one even knew what they were until some crybaby libs gave them marching orders.
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In New Orleans, 4 Confederate Statues were removed, and basically, they were removed for 'economic' reasons, ... like losing Convention Business.
 
noise said:
I like the idea of historical commisions making the decision as to whether to remove/stay or relocate the CSA statues.

I called for a national commission, or state by state a long time ago -it takes it out of the political realm
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That depends entirely on how the commission is staffed. If it consists of, say, the top 50 historians in America, as selected by tenured history professors, that would be relatively apolitical. If it consists of whatever hacks the governor of NC wants to appoint, that's entirely political.

for ex. there is one in Richmond that honors the service of Robert E, Lee
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If that were about his service as a president of a college, after the war, I could be OK with it. If it's about his service to a white supremacist rebellion that resulted in the deaths of countless American soldiers, I'd consider that inappropriate. Our troops fought and died beating the Confederacy. It's an insult to them for the man responsible for so many of their deaths to be honored. It's also a little weird to honor someone for getting his army's ass kicked that way.
 
Stargazer said:
You think tearing statues down representative of events hundreds of years ago will "make it go away", the mindset of a big blubbering baby.
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We're not trying to make the history of the Civil War go away.

What we're doing is making the glorification of the losers go away.

Don't worry - everyone will still remember the South lost the war.
 
Stargazer said:
It changes nothing.
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Well, it doesn't change the history that the South turned their backs on the country to promote white supremacy and slavery. That will never change.

What will change is the glorification of those traitors who fought on the losing side.

We don't need to remember them.
 
Oneuli said:
If that were about his service as a president of a college, after the war, I could be OK with it. If it's about his service to a white supremacist rebellion that resulted in the deaths of countless American soldiers, I'd consider that inappropriate. Our troops fought and died beating the Confederacy. It's an insult to them for the man responsible for so many of their deaths to be honored. It's also a little weird to honor someone for getting his army's ass kicked that way.
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Exactly.

They want monuments to men who renounced the US, renounced its Constitution, renounced its institutions, and tried to create their own.

Fuck them and their memories.
 
Oneuli said:
It's tempting to immediately condemn those who illegally pull down confederate statues, but it's important to remember the context of that vandalism. At least in North Carolina, a law at the state level has made it effectively impossible for communities to remove such statues by lawful means. Even if a university is uncomfortable with subjecting its students to a monument to white supremacy, they cannot take it down or even move it to a less prominent place without a change of the law at the state level. Similarly, if a community of color doesn't like having to see a defender of slavery honored in their midst, they cannot protect themselves from that eyesore through legal action at the community or even city level. By denying people in those locales usable legal tools for addressing offensive statues, the state has effectively invited extra-legal action by those communities.

Here's an idea for an alternative. As I understand it, the law was worded such that it only made it illegal to take the statue down or to move it to a less prominent place. If that's right, you could simply cover it up. The left has a lot of really talented artists. So, just have some design structures that can be built around the offensive ones, hiding them completely. That could include practical things like little clock towers or obelisks for posting placards. Or it could be other monuments, designed to fit snugly (and maybe irreversibly) over the offensive ones and to send a very different message.

For example, put up a big pedestal, covering the offensive statue, and on top of that put a statue to John Adams Hyman, the first African American Congress member in North Carolina. Or have it feature statues of several black students, representing the first black students at UNC, following court-ordered desegregation. Then the statue hasn't been brought down or moved, so nothing illegal has happened, but it's been transformed from a celebration of white supremacist treason to a celebration of something positive.
Click to expand...

So vandalism is OK as long as you can justify it in your simple mind?

What's positive about someone being admitted to UNC due to affirmative action?

I have an idea. Why don't you lead the way in doing what you propose and see how far you get.

What about a piece of metal, an inanimate object, scares you so much?
 
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