Confederate Statues

Warts and all to be taught to this and future generations regarding how to NOT to act.

So what are the "warts" on these statues because they look like glorification that ignores the warts.

For instance, does it say on these statues that these guys were traitors who renounced the USA and killed Americans because they wanted slaves? Nope.

So you're keeping statues around that glorify traitors because of "warts"?
 
Use it to teach a valuable lesson.

What lesson do monuments to traitors teach us? All it teaches us is that there are people who share those values because they don't want these monuments taken down. Is that what you're trying to teach us? That you're a bunch of traitors like these guys were, and that's why you want their monuments preserved?

How do monuments that glorify these people serve to teach us anything? What lesson do these participation trophies teach?
 
What lesson do monuments to traitors teach us? All it teaches us is that there are people who share those values because they don't want these monuments taken down. Is that what you're trying to teach us? That you're a bunch of traitors like these guys were, and that's why you want their monuments preserved?

How do monuments that glorify these people serve to teach us anything? What lesson do these participation trophies teach?

They teach us today that people like you like to whine when you see inanimate objects made of metal that trigger you.
 
Or, is this too old-fashioned an idea? American history and world history used to be taught...the good, the bad and the ugly

How are these statues "bad" or "ugly"? None of them make any mention of the fact that these guys were traitors, nor do they even mention these guys lost.

They're just monuments to the men, who held these immoral values.

So what are they teaching?
 
Statues, battle fields, documents, prominent past historical figures are evidence and an opportunity to instruct as well as to warn.

How do these monuments "warn" or "document" or teach?

They don't.

They contain no historical value, no educational value; they're just participation trophies to make losers and traitors feel better about being awful human beings.


Stick'm all in a museum if kids have become too delicate to handle history in this world.

Nah. Because they have no "warts", so they're not teaching anything. They're literally monuments. To traitors. No warts.
 
How do these monuments "warn" or "document" or teach?

They don't.

They contain no historical value, no educational value; they're just participation trophies to make losers and traitors feel better about being awful human beings.




Nah. Because they have no "warts", so they're not teaching anything. They're literally monuments. To traitors. No warts.
So, no monuments, documents, prominent past historical figures are of any value? ? there's a lot of tearing down and destroying to do then. and no need to continue creating them. Is that what you're saying?
 
So, no monuments, documents, prominent past historical figures are of any value

"Documents"?

Of course there are plenty of documents about these traitors. They wrote articles of secession that lay out precisely why they renounced the US, the Constitution, and our democratic institutions. Want to remember history, then build statues about that. But I think you'll have a hard time defending monuments to slavery.

So you're now lumping in the monuments with ambiguous "documents", huh? Cool. Cool cool cool.

Well, you'll be shocked to learn that books, movies, TV, and the internet all exist.
 
there's a lot of tearing down and destroying to do then. and no need to continue creating them. Is that what you're saying?

Leave it to a Conservative to go to a hyperbolic extreme like this.

Why have any history?

You're under the mistaken impression that these statues contribute to history. You've been unable to explain how they do.
 
"Documents"?

Of course there are plenty of documents about these traitors. They wrote articles of secession that lay out precisely why they renounced the US, the Constitution, and our democratic institutions. Want to remember history, then build statues about that. But I think you'll have a hard time defending monuments to slavery.

So you're now lumping in the monuments with ambiguous "documents", huh? Cool. Cool cool cool.

Well, you'll be shocked to learn that books, movies, TV, and the internet all exist.
So no more....monuments or documentation OR books, movies, TV or internet....UNLESS it's history that you agree with......
 
Leave it to a Conservative to go to a hyperbolic extreme like this.

Why have any history?

You're under the mistaken impression that these statues contribute to history. You've been unable to explain how they do.
You've been unable to explain how they do not represent history....and unable to express just what history should be represented by "statues"...or monuments...
Let's just deal with those for the moment....
 
It's tempting to immediately condemn those who illegally pull down confederate statues, but it's important to remember the context of that vandalism. At least in North Carolina, a law at the state level has made it effectively impossible for communities to remove such statues by lawful means. Even if a university is uncomfortable with subjecting its students to a monument to white supremacy, they cannot take it down or even move it to a less prominent place without a change of the law at the state level. Similarly, if a community of color doesn't like having to see a defender of slavery honored in their midst, they cannot protect themselves from that eyesore through legal action at the community or even city level. By denying people in those locales usable legal tools for addressing offensive statues, the state has effectively invited extra-legal action by those communities.

Here's an idea for an alternative. As I understand it, the law was worded such that it only made it illegal to take the statue down or to move it to a less prominent place. If that's right, you could simply cover it up. The left has a lot of really talented artists. So, just have some design structures that can be built around the offensive ones, hiding them completely. That could include practical things like little clock towers or obelisks for posting placards. Or it could be other monuments, designed to fit snugly (and maybe irreversibly) over the offensive ones and to send a very different message.

For example, put up a big pedestal, covering the offensive statue, and on top of that put a statue to John Adams Hyman, the first African American Congress member in North Carolina. Or have it feature statues of several black students, representing the first black students at UNC, following court-ordered desegregation. Then the statue hasn't been brought down or moved, so nothing illegal has happened, but it's been transformed from a celebration of white supremacist treason to a celebration of something positive.

Were you dropped on your head as a child?
 
So no more....monuments or documentation OR books, movies, TV or internet....UNLESS it's history that you agree with......

Who said anything about getting rid of all that stuff?

You can still have your Civil War fanfic, no one's taking that away from you.

The monuments serve no historical purpose. All they do is glorify traitors. Maybe those are your values, though, which would explain why you're so ridiculously defensive about them.
 
You've been unable to explain how they do not represent history

I have, countless times.

There's nothing on those monuments that talk about why these guys decided to renounce the US and become traitors.

So you can't really teach history if the things you're using to teach it lack historical context, right?

So where's the historical context of these statues? Because the only historical context of them is that they were mostly built during Jim Crow, by racists who wanted to celebrate the heritage of white supremacy and treason.
 
and unable to express just what history should be represented by "statues"...or monuments..

Monuments literally glorify and/or honor the people and things to which the monuments were built.

The Treason monuments shouldn't have been built at all. No one built monuments to Benedict Arnold after he did what he did. No one built monuments to the British troops who died on our soil in the American Revolution or the War of 1812. No one built monuments to the Japanese in Pearl Harbor, or the Nazis.

But only you want to build and preserve monuments to Confederate traitors. The reason is because you share their values; treason, white supremacy, losing.
 
Who said anything about getting rid of all that stuff?

You can still have your Civil War fanfic, no one's taking that away from you.

The monuments serve no historical purpose. All they do is glorify traitors. Maybe those are your values, though, which would explain why you're so ridiculously defensive about them.
Of course they are historically valuable‘....they're a part of the history of this country....
If it were up to you, would all museums be cleared of anything that represents a horrible or difficult time in history? So that some would not be offended by the past?
 
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