Confederate Statues

There were aspects of the CSA secession that were worthy of consideration and also justifiable constitutional changes in my opinion that would create a legitimate limited government, states rights, term limits, and other economic improvements and localized responsibility

I understand you recognize the importance of slavery in the secession, and I appreciate you saying so. But I think you give too much lip service to the supposed ideals of the CSA. I think those were never actual ideals, but rather just temporarily convenient tactics for the promotion of white supremacy.

Take states rights, as an example. The pro-slavery factions liked to talk up the importance of states rights, but did they believe in them? Well, look what position they took when the question was fugitive slaves. A true states-rightser would have taken the position that each state has an absolute sovereign right to decide whether or not slavery exists within their borders, and so once an enslaved person crossed into a free state, he became free, and the free state was under no obligation to shackle him and return him to someone in another state who claimed ownership rights. Yet these supposed states-rightsers cheered the federal Supreme Court effectively extending slavery, by federal fiat, into every free state, for purposes of dictating the status of fugitives from slavery.

Similarly, the confederate states talked a good game about limited government, but it was the CSA, not the USA, that was first to institute a draft, during the war. The CSA was also more heavy-handed in dictating economic terms to its component states for purposes of the war effort. Once again, when the issue came down to a choice between their so-called principles and whatever was convenient for the cause of white supremacy, they always went with the latter.

I can praise the courage of the thousands of Confederate soldiers that went off to war and also praise their families for enduring their absence or loss.

I don't deny their courage, nor the hardship they made their families endure for their cause. But couldn't the same be said about most soldiers in history? Is it right to praise them for those things, even when their causes were monstrous? For example, it's hard to deny that the 9/11 hijackers had a level of courage that would put most soldiers to shame. How many soldiers, after all, have ever willingly gone out on a mission that they knew, if it succeeded, would give them zero hope of surviving to see the end of the day? Other than a handful of kamikazes and suicide bombers, that certain embrace of one's own death for a cause one believes in is almost unheard of in war. Yet, while I cannot claim to deny their courage, I can't praise it, either. The same is true for the Germans who defended the beaches of Normandy -- seeing wave after wave of allies hitting the beach, and knowing that if they stood their ground they'd almost certainly be dead by nightfall. There was certainly courage in that. But it was courage in an unjust cause, and so I cannot praise it. For the same reason, I cannot praise the courage of the confederate soldiers.
 
Hello Stretch,



Naming public institutions and erecting statues, all in the name of those who fought for slavery, is rewriting history; pretending that cause was justified. It wasn't, and should not be portrayed that way. It was the wrong thing to do.

The way the South has glorified the leaders of the Confederacy, one would think the South won.

All of those statues and institutional names are nothing more than the losing white supremacists way of saying FU to the blacks who were freed from slavery when the United States won the Civil War. Forcing black children to attend schools named for Confederate heroes was like rubbing it in their face and 'putting them in their place,' namely the lower rungs of the economic ladder.

The removal of statues, the changing of names is not ignoring history or trying to rewrite it. It it acknowledging the emancipation of those black Americans who were tortured, locked up, whipped and enslaved, forced to work long hours with no pay, no breaks, no education, no dignity. Then they were housed in dirt floor shacks without heat or screens. It is acknowledging the emancipation of our self-respect from being held hostage by the idea that the confederacy was in any way glorious. It is an act of giving innocent young black children a fair chance at prosperity. It is promoting the general Welfare.

It's called moving on.

We can't change history.

But we can learn from it.

And we can stop glorifying a past we should be ashamed of.

That's history. There was a civil war. Slavery was abolished. Any sane person knows slavery was abhorrent. We overcame that and have moved on. There were marches of whites and blacks together protesting school segregation. There were some brave black kids who stood on the steps at school entrances demanding to go in. God bless them. Maybe more white and black kids should be taught that and shown the film footage and smacked into reality to show up for 12 years of free education available to all. Have plaques attached to the bases of these statues informing kids of the bad things some of them stood for. It's 2018, go to school, get educated, get a job, get married, have kids, love your family and live peaceably among your neighbors. Leave a peaceful legacy to the kids instead of constantly looking for a fight. Move on.

“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit. Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”
Quote by Omar Khayyám
 
That's history. There was a civil war. Slavery was abolished. Any sane person knows slavery was abhorrent. We overcame that and have moved on. There were marches of whites and blacks together protesting school segregation. There were some brave black kids who stood on the steps at school entrances demanding to go in. God bless them. Maybe more white and black kids should be taught that and shown the film footage and smacked into reality to show up for 12 years of free education available to all. Have plaques attached to the bases of these statues informing kids of the bad things some of them stood for. It's 2018, go to school, get educated, get a job, get married, have kids, love your family and live peaceably among your neighbors. Leave a peaceful legacy to the kids instead of constantly looking for a fight. Move on.

“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit. Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”
Quote by Omar Khayyám

Slavery was not abolished, it was adjusted.
 
Slavery was not abolished, it was adjusted.

Sure it was. The 13th Amendment said so. The self imposed slavery by a large percentage of blacks today is not involuntary. It's by their choice. I can understand why they'd be so loyal to Democrats especially with how well the black community does as a whole by having followed LBJ's order 50 years ago.
 
There were marches of whites and blacks together protesting school segregation.

Yeah, but it wasn't Conservatives or white people who ended segregation. It was the Supreme Court in Brown v. Board of Education. And the people who opposed that ruling were the same people who built those monuments in the first place, attacked those peaceful protesters, assassinated MLK, and voted against Civil Rights. And those people found a home in the Republican Party beginning in the late 60's.

And how do the monuments to Confederate traitors teach any of that? They don't.
 
Yeah, but it wasn't Conservatives or white people who ended segregation. It was the Supreme Court in Brown v. Board of Education. And the people who opposed that ruling were the same people who built those monuments in the first place, attacked those peaceful protesters, assassinated MLK, and voted against Civil Rights. And those people found a home in the Republican Party beginning in the late 60's.

And how do the monuments to Confederate traitors teach any of that? They don't.

hey nut-bag
question for you

should we tear down the pyramids in Egypt?
 
There were some brave black kids who stood on the steps at school entrances demanding to go in.

And there were tons of cornpone Conservatives who stood in the doorways to block those entrances. The same people who built those Confederate memorials and monuments. So you have people on the wrong side of history, who built monuments to traitors, that you're defending in the ambiguous terms of "history". The way you're talking makes it sound like the people who those monuments were built for were the ones who brought us Civil Rights. That's why this whole thing is crap and why defenses of those monuments are also crap; these people weren't benevolent. They were racists and traitors. Why honor their memory at all? Their cause was illegitimate. And they lost.


Have plaques attached to the bases of these statues informing kids of the bad things some of them stood for.

Or how about you rebuild the monuments, but accurately depict the people killing Americans and enslaving blacks. None of this honorable soldier shit. None of them were honorable because they fought for a dishonorable cause and lost.


Leave a peaceful legacy

There is nothing peaceful about the legacy of Confederates no matter how much you want it to be. They should not rest in peace. They were traitors. What circle of Hell do traitors end up in anyway?
 
you obviously have studied very little about the civil war, so you need to either do that, or stop embarrassing yourself

look,
CNN told you to care about the statues, and suddenly you did.
Does that not bother you at least a little, puppet boy?
 
hey nut-bag
question for you
should we tear down the pyramids in Egypt?

How about instead of whatabouting like some low-rent KGB hack, you actually have a thoughtful discussion about why you think preserving monuments that glorify traitors and racists teach anyone anything about history?
 
CNN told you to care about the statues, and suddenly you did.
Does that not bother you at least a little, puppet boy?

Wrong.

We've always cared about these statues...you just haven't been paying attention. And just because you haven't been paying attention doesn't mean nothing happened. The world does not revolve around you and your myopic worldview.

Delete your account; kill yourself. It's obvious that you contribute nothing to society and are just a drain on resources.
 
Why must the memory of Confederate (Not American) soldiers be preserved? They were traitors. And they lost. Why glorify them at all?

The best I can answer your question is to say that not everybody feels the way you do and that the freedom of speech is not always going to be liked by all, but that’s why it’s important. If someone wants to fly a confederate flag in their yard or maintain a cemetery for confederate soldiers then they have that constitutional right to do so. Also I would argue that they were still Americans, they just were no longer part of the United States.
 
The best I can answer your question is to say that not everybody feels the way you do

Fuck their feelings.

So this is about "feelings". So what "feelings" do Conservatives have for these Confederates other than admiration? Because that's the only feeling they seem to express toward the statues and monuments to traitors and losers.
 
Fuck their feelings.

So this is about "feelings". So what "feelings" do Conservatives have for these Confederates other than admiration? Because that's the only feeling they seem to express toward the statues and monuments to traitors and losers.

You have emotions towards this so it’s reasonable that the other side will have similar feelings. It’s your right to disagree with it and it’s their right to support it. Also it’s important to know that the confederate soldiers were pardoned of treason and granted full rights again after the war by President Johnson. Lincoln also pardoned many people before he died, and Grant was very lenient as well. If they were able to see them as Americans and look ahead then I think we can too.
 
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the freedom of speech is not always going to be the liked by all.

So statues on public land are speech?

It's hard to keep track of what's speech and what isn't these days; money is speech, kneeling silently during an anthem is not; statues are speech, tearing them down is not.

The standards and parameters seem to change by the second.

How exactly are monuments to traitors, losers, and racists "free speech"? I must have missed that memo.


If someone wants to fly a confederate flag in their yard or maintain a cemetery for confederate soldiers then they have that constitutional right to do so.

These monuments we are talking about are all on public land, on public buildings, in public spaces. And if some fucking racist wants to fly a Confederate flag, fine. He doesn't have the right, however, to avoid paying the social consequences of doing so.


Also I would argue that they were still Americans,

NO THEY WEREN'T!

They renounced America. They renounced the Constitution. They renounced their oaths to the country. They renounced the President. They renounced the democratic institutions. They wrote their own Constitution, elected their own President, named their own capital, and called themselves the Confederate States of America.

So they were very much not Americans. They ceased being Americans when they renounced their oaths.
 
You have emotions towards this so it’s reasonable that the other side will have similar feelings.

Feelings about what!?

That's the part you all leave out of your explanations. You never go into detail about what those statues mean to the people who are defending them, and why they are illegitimate. So they have strong feelings...for treason? For racism? For slavery? Because those are the only things to have feelings about when it comes to traitorous Confederate soldiers who killed Americans and renounced their oaths to the United States.
 
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