Odd that a descendent of the biggest traitors to the United States in history - the confederate rebels - is passing judgement on the patriotism of americans descended from japanese, russian, or muslim ancestors.
Dixie, Im interested in your opinion...
- Thread starter Jarod
- Start date
Odd that a descendent of the biggest traitors to the United States in history - the confederate rebels - is passing judgement on the patriotism of americans descended from japanese, russian, or muslim ancestors.
It's a time thing. My G-Father couldn't get a clearance, as first-born of Russian Volga German descendants. I could...
That of course is clearances. And if he had a need to know he likely could get one now. How we reacted to war in WWII and how we react now are two different things. I wonder if those muslims in the military in Iraq are suspect.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
I wonder if those muslims in the military in Iraq are suspect.
I'm sure they have had to undergo some extra scrutiny, wouldn't you imagine? ...Hell, I don't know though, if pinheads are running the show, all they had to do was show them their alQaeda membership card, and that was probably good enough!
I just can't get over, there are actually idiots in this world who think it's racist to distrust your enemies. What have we come to?
I'm sure they have had to undergo some extra scrutiny, wouldn't you imagine? ...Hell, I don't know though, if pinheads are running the show, all they had to do was show them their alQaeda membership card, and that was probably good enough!
I just can't get over, there are actually idiots in this world who think it's racist to distrust your enemies. What have we come to?
maineman
Banned
we aren't talking about clearances..we are talking about Dixie's assertion that it was perfectly reasonable to consider American citizens who were of russian ancestry to be enemies of the state during the cold war ... and that anyone who considers muslim Americans as enemies of the state today is being reasonable and not bigoted or racist.
maineman
Banned
and I just can't get over that there are some narrow minded bigots in America who would consider a native born American who happens to be a muslim as an enemy worthy of distrust.
uscitizen
Villified User
"I just can't get over, there are actually idiots in this world who think it's racist to distrust your enemies. What have we come to?"
That's because you're incapable of recognizing your own bigotry. What makes you think Americans of japanese, muslim, or russian descent are (or were) "our enemies"?
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Odd that a descendent of the biggest traitors to the United States in history - the confederate rebels - is passing judgement on the patriotism of americans descended from japanese, russian, or muslim ancestors.
It has nothing to do with passing judgement on patriotism, it's called "common sense" and I am sure you are totally unaware it exists. I've not said a word about Muslim ancestors, you've managed to interject that into the debate. I am arguing the charge of "bigotry and racism" which was leveled without any justification or proof. Because someone expressed an opinion different from your own, is no reason to call them a racist or bigot.
I don't know what this guys viewpoint is, none of you will actually post something he said. Regardless of what I think he meant, or how I perceive it to be intended, he has every right to express his opinion, and just because he doesn't think we should be electing Muslims to office, doesn't make him racist or bigoted any more than past Americans who have done the same thing. You can either conclude we are just one giant bigot nation, or you can reasonably understand that people can have a number of motivations for their prejudices besides racism and bigotry.
You made the tactical error of lumping in Muslims with the Russians and Japanese... you didn't realize you did it, but you did... We can now conclude, you do indeed understand the parallel I was attempting to make, because you tied them together in your retort. Again, I am not agreeing with this guy's view, I was merely pointing out, it wasn't racist or bigoted, as has been the traditional thinking for many years, to avoid electing your enemy to power.
Now that I know you understood the parallel to the Russians and Japanese, I know you can realize that this man's viewpoint was not based on, or rooted in bigoted racism, but rather, well-reasoned and understandable human prejudice based on the relevant current events.
And now that I have successfully argued why this guy was not a bigot or racist, let me tell you how he was wrong. The fact that Ellison is Muslim, is not the same as being of a certain nationality, it is a religious belief. There are about 2 billion Muslims on the planet, and only a small fraction of them are radical violent enemies of the state. This small fraction has perverted the word of Islam for their own advantages, and have marginalized themselves as Muslims, to the point of not even being considered 'Muslim' by people of their own faith anymore. Being opposed to Ellison being Muslim and holding office, is as ridiculous as being opposed to a Christian holding office after the Civil War, when the KKK proudly upheld "Christian" values. Is Ellison an Islamofascist? That should be the question! If not, there should be no opposition to him, based solely on his religious beliefs. Indeed, there should be no religious test for political office, and I am opposed to this across the board in every instance, including this one.
It has nothing to do with passing judgement on patriotism, it's called "common sense" and I am sure you are totally unaware it exists. I've not said a word about Muslim ancestors, you've managed to interject that into the debate. I am arguing the charge of "bigotry and racism" which was leveled without any justification or proof. Because someone expressed an opinion different from your own, is no reason to call them a racist or bigot.
I don't know what this guys viewpoint is, none of you will actually post something he said. Regardless of what I think he meant, or how I perceive it to be intended, he has every right to express his opinion, and just because he doesn't think we should be electing Muslims to office, doesn't make him racist or bigoted any more than past Americans who have done the same thing. You can either conclude we are just one giant bigot nation, or you can reasonably understand that people can have a number of motivations for their prejudices besides racism and bigotry.
You made the tactical error of lumping in Muslims with the Russians and Japanese... you didn't realize you did it, but you did... We can now conclude, you do indeed understand the parallel I was attempting to make, because you tied them together in your retort. Again, I am not agreeing with this guy's view, I was merely pointing out, it wasn't racist or bigoted, as has been the traditional thinking for many years, to avoid electing your enemy to power.
Now that I know you understood the parallel to the Russians and Japanese, I know you can realize that this man's viewpoint was not based on, or rooted in bigoted racism, but rather, well-reasoned and understandable human prejudice based on the relevant current events.
And now that I have successfully argued why this guy was not a bigot or racist, let me tell you how he was wrong. The fact that Ellison is Muslim, is not the same as being of a certain nationality, it is a religious belief. There are about 2 billion Muslims on the planet, and only a small fraction of them are radical violent enemies of the state. This small fraction has perverted the word of Islam for their own advantages, and have marginalized themselves as Muslims, to the point of not even being considered 'Muslim' by people of their own faith anymore. Being opposed to Ellison being Muslim and holding office, is as ridiculous as being opposed to a Christian holding office after the Civil War, when the KKK proudly upheld "Christian" values. Is Ellison an Islamofascist? That should be the question! If not, there should be no opposition to him, based solely on his religious beliefs. Indeed, there should be no religious test for political office, and I am opposed to this across the board in every instance, including this one.
Can't tap dance your way out of this one Dixe.
No one ever said that Americans, didn't have "reasons" to not elect japanese-americans or russian-americans. Or to inter japanese-americans in concentration camps
But, those "reasons" weren't based on "sound, reasonable" logic, as you asserted (see below). Its was based on fear and paranoia. Japanese-americans in our Army were our most ferocious and brave soldiers in the WWII european theater.
I'd like you to admit that there WEREN'T "sound and reasonable" reasons for discriminating against americans of japanese or russian descent.
DIXIE: "How many Japanese-Americans were on the ballots in 1945? How many Russian people did we elect to Congress in the 50's, 60's and 70's? Was this because we were just a bunch of bigots? Or did we have sound reasonable objections to certain people holding certain positions of elected office?
No one ever said that Americans, didn't have "reasons" to not elect japanese-americans or russian-americans. Or to inter japanese-americans in concentration camps
But, those "reasons" weren't based on "sound, reasonable" logic, as you asserted (see below). Its was based on fear and paranoia. Japanese-americans in our Army were our most ferocious and brave soldiers in the WWII european theater.
I'd like you to admit that there WEREN'T "sound and reasonable" reasons for discriminating against americans of japanese or russian descent.
DIXIE: "How many Japanese-Americans were on the ballots in 1945? How many Russian people did we elect to Congress in the 50's, 60's and 70's? Was this because we were just a bunch of bigots? Or did we have sound reasonable objections to certain people holding certain positions of elected office?
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Try to get this through your thick head... I am not saying it's 'perfectly reasonable' to do this, just that we have done it over and over again. It's not racism or bigotry that is the basis for this, it is a common sense distrust of potential enemy threats under certain conditions. Maintaining a common sense distrust of your enemies, is indeed, 'reasonable'. Those who have failed to do this, have met terrible fates throughout history.
Racism is the belief that one race is superior or inferior, and bigotry is the stubborn insistence in your views, and intolerance of the views of others. Prejudice is a natural human behavior, and we exhibit this behavior every single day of our lives. To cobble these three words together and attempt to make a purely judgemental and opinionated charge against someone, is petty and lame. Show me something the man said that was racist, and I'll condemn him for being racist! Show me where the man is a prejudiced bigot, and I'll blast him for it! But don't come here showing me something that Americans have been doing for their entire existence, and claiming this makes him a bigot!
Dixie, maybe this will dissuade you from disparaging japanese-americans, and assert that there were "sound" reasons to question their patriotism during World War 2:
The 100th Infantry Battalion, comprised of mostly Japanese-Americans, served in the European Theater of WWII.
The battalion earned 21 Medals of Honor, 53 Distinguished Service Crosses, 9,486 Purple Hearts and seven Presidential Unit Citations, the nation's top award for combat units.
maineman
Banned
"Maintaining a common sense distrust of your enemies, is indeed, 'reasonable'. Those who have failed to do this, have met terrible fates throughout history."
so you are saying that american citizens who are muslims are your enemies? and that during the cold war, american citizens of russian ancestry were your enemies?
so you are saying that american citizens who are muslims are your enemies? and that during the cold war, american citizens of russian ancestry were your enemies?
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Fear and paranoia are not racism and bigotry. We certainly did discriminate against Russians and Japanese, you couldn't give me a list of any political candidates for public office, could you? I also gave you numerous other examples, like Southerners immediately after the Civil War, and the Native Americans during the founding of the nation. And you can go back in history before the founding of our nation, to the days of Napoleon or Alexander... people have never rolled out the welcome mat for their enemies. So, this is really nothing new, it's common sense which people have practiced for centuries.
No one ever said that Americans, didn't have "reasons" to not elect japanese-americans or russian-americans...But, those "reasons" weren't based on "sound, reasonable" logic, as you asserted.
Which is why I posed the 'either/or' question... it has to be one or the other... either we are a nation of unreasonable illogical bigots, or we had sound reasonable logic to do something as a whole like that. Which one is it?
I maintain, whether it's "right" or "wrong", that people display prejudice as a part of the human condition, and we can't do a damn thing about that. Understanding the causes and reasons for the prejudice is important, to distinguish between racist prejudices and racial bigotry, and typical or reasonable human prejudice. Liberals always want to marry prejudice with racism and bigotry, my guess is, because they are hypocrites who are racially prejudice themselves, and can see no other reasonable explanation for how a person can be prejudiced without being a racist bigot like them.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
I'm not saying this.
I am saying that someone who has the opinion, Muslims could be a potential enemy of the state, in a time of war against radical Muslim terrorist groups, is no different from someone who had the opinion of Russians during the Cold War, or Japanese during WWII, or Southerners during the Civil War, or Redcoats during the Revolution! It has not a damn thing to do with racial bigotry or prejudice! It has to do with a common sense value found in MOST humans, to not give their enemies power and control over them.
This is not about what Dixie thinks, and I am getting tired of debating it from that standpoint. I want you to go back and re-read what I have posted, and see if you can't understand the point I am trying to make to you here. I don't necessarily have to agree with the radio talk show host, or the Virgil Goode dude, and I probably don't agree with them completely, but I do understand their viewpoint, which is evidence that I am not a bigot myself, and you?
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Well, now you are taking an enormous leap. You are saying because fear and paranoia can be used to promote racism, that is always the case. I disagree.
First off, I disagree with the use of the word "paranoia" because it is defined as "unwarranted fear" and fear of Muslim Extremists is not "unwarranted" at all, in this day and age. Fear is not always a bad thing, it is a great motivator. There is a very fine line between fearlessness and stupidity, and most people who have no fear, will end up dead as a result.
The question was about these right-wingers no one has ever heard of, and whether or not they are bigots and racists for their viewpoints. Now, you are arguing they are paranoid fear-mongers, which could even lead to racism... *gasp!*