APP - Do biological viruses actually exist?

I never claimed that, nor did anyone in the 2 page statement I was quoting above. The claim is that there is no solid evidence that the microbes recorded in electron micrographs are biological viruses.
You have created a circular argument.

No, but let's get into why you think so...

You deny that existing electron micrographs are of viruses but then you claim the evidence you need to convince you is what you deny exists when shown it.

No, not what happened. The evidence required to persuade me that biological viruses are probably real is outlined in the 2 page statement from the group of doctors and other researchers linked to and quoted in the first post of this thread.
 
I never claimed that, nor did anyone in the 2 page statement I was quoting above. The claim is that there is no solid evidence that the microbes recorded in electron micrographs are biological viruses.
Really? Did you not read what you posted? You are clearly denying that the pictures of viruses are viruses.

No, I'm pointing out that th ere is no solid evidence that the electron micrographs depict biological viruses. What you fail to realize is that there is no solid evidence that the micrographs have any solid evidence that the microbes they depict are biological viruses.
 
No, I'm pointing out that th ere is no solid evidence that the electron micrographs depict biological viruses. What you fail to realize is that there is no solid evidence that the micrographs have any solid evidence that the microbes they depict are biological viruses.

So thousands of scientists across the planet using thousands of electron microscopes producing thousands of identical photos of the same viruses are lying? Do you also think that thousands of astronomers, professional and amateur, using thousands of telescopes to view and photograph a particular comet not visible to the naked eye are also lying?
 
You'd have to ignore the virus we isolated... (Small Pox).

The alleged smallpox virus was never truly isolated, though I know that chatgpt will say it was. I decided to ask the free chatgpt version to see who had allegedly discovered the smallpox virus. I find its answer to be interesting:
**
The smallpox virus wasn't "discovered" in the traditional sense by one person, as its existence was known to people for centuries. However, the scientific understanding of smallpox and its virus came through the work of several individuals.


  1. Edward Jenner (1796): While Jenner did not discover the smallpox virus itself, he is often credited with the discovery of the smallpox vaccine. He observed that milkmaids who had contracted cowpox (a related virus) seemed immune to smallpox. He tested this by inoculating a boy with material from a cowpox lesion and later exposing him to smallpox, finding that the boy did not develop the disease. This was the foundation for immunization against smallpox.
  2. Louis Pasteur and Robert Koch (late 1800s): These scientists made important contributions to germ theory and disease pathology, which helped explain how viruses and bacteria cause illness. Pasteur developed the germ theory of disease, and Koch's postulates helped confirm the role of specific pathogens in diseases. While they didn’t directly discover the smallpox virus, their work set the stage for understanding how viruses cause diseases.
  3. Virus discovery: The actual smallpox virus, known as Variola virus, was identified much later, with scientists understanding that it was a virus rather than a bacterium in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

In summary, Edward Jenner's work in the late 18th century paved the way for the understanding of smallpox prevention, but the virus itself was later studied and characterized by other researchers.

**

Here's an article that gets into Edward Jenner's smallpox "vaccine":

Quoting from it:
**
In defending virology and vaccines, the authors brought up Edward Jenner, pioneer of the deadly smallpox vaccination and considered the father of “immunology,” as an example of someone who successfully used the scientific method. However, is that really the case?

Edward Jenner: The Importance of Observation

Edward Jenner, born in England in 1749, is one of the most famous physicians in medical history. Jenner tested the hypothesis that infection with cowpox could protect a person from smallpox infection. All vaccines developed since Jenner’s time stem from his work.

Cowpox is an uncommon illness in cattle, usually mild, that can be spread from a cow to a human via sores on the cow's udder. Smallpox, in contrast, was a deadly disease of humans. It killed about 30% of those it infected. Survivors often bore deep, pitted scars on their faces and other parts of the body affected by the blistering illness. Smallpox was a leading cause of blindness.
Jenner's starting point did not involve any observed natural phenomenon. Instead, he relied upon a dairymaid’s statement, which does not constitute an empirical observation of a natural phenomenon in the strict scientific sense, as it wasn't a systematic observation of an event in nature without human interference. In other words, Jenner based his hypothesis on anecdotal stories that relied on individual reports or popular beliefs rather than systematic scientific observation. Keep in mind that the initial observation that people who had cowpox do not become ill with smallpox is correlational and does not imply causation. Just because two phenomena occur together does not mean one causes the other.

Nevertheless, Jenner decided to test the claim by introducing material from a cowpox sore into the arm of an eight-year-old boy, James Phipps. After Phipps recovered, Jenner later exposed him to material from a smallpox sore. When Phipps did not develop smallpox, Jenner declared the experiment a success.

However, Jenner's experiment faces several problems. As pointed out by David W. Evans, the first critical step towards understanding disease causation is proper disease characterization. This involves fully defining the symptoms, signs, pathological changes, and the natural course of the disease so that its presence can be measured and distinguished from other illnesses. Without this, it is impossible to test a cause-and-effect relationship accurately.

Conveniently, Jenner’s 1798 treatise provided the first description of human cowpox, where he stated that cowpox “bears so strong a resemblance to the smallpox that I think it highly probable it may be the source of the disease.” Essentially, cowpox was viewed as a milder form of smallpox, and distinguishing between the two based on physical examination alone was difficult, in not impossible, for physicians. This raises a crucial question: Did Jenner really have two separate, clearly distinguishable diseases to test his hypothesis, or was he simply observing different stages of the same disease process? The lack of clarity on whether cowpox and smallpox were distinct diseases with separate causal agents further weakens the validity of his experiment in proving causality.

Furthermore, Jenner did not have a valid independent variable in purified and isolated cowpox or smallpox “virus” that were ever identified prior to experimentation. A critical aspect of scientific experimentation is the ability to isolate the variable of interest. The independent variable should be a clearly defined factor that is manipulated to observe its effects on a dependent variable without confounding variables present. Jenner's independent variable, which was simply material taken from cowpox cases, was not well-defined or purified, leaving room for plenty of confounding factors. This undermines the strength of any causal claim between cowpox exposure and “immunity” to smallpox. By not identifying the cowpox “virus” as the causative agent prior to experimentation, Jenner's approach failed to establish a clear cause-and-effect relationship. Without isolating the effects of a cowpox “virus,” any observed “immunity” could result from other factors.


**
 
Really? Did you not read what you posted? You are clearly denying that the pictures of viruses are viruses.
No, I'm pointing out that there is no solid evidence that the electron micrographs depict biological viruses. What you fail to realize is that there is no solid evidence that the micrographs have any solid evidence that the microbes they depict are biological viruses.
So thousands of scientists across the planet using thousands of electron microscopes producing thousands of identical photos of the same viruses are lying?

The assumption that both you and Saunders are making is that the electron micrographs are recording images of biological viruses rather than other microbes. The 2 page statement that I link to and quote in the first post of this thread gets into this. I'll quote a bit of it here:
**
Perhaps the primary evidence that the pathogenic viral theory is problematic is that no published scientific paper has ever shown that particles fulfilling the definition of viruses have been directly isolated and purified from any tissues or bodily fluids of any sick human or animal. Using the commonly accepted definition of “isolation”, which is the separation of one thing from all other things, there is general agreement that this has never been done in the history of virology. Particles that have been successfully isolated through purification have not been shown to be replication-competent, infectious and disease-causing, hence they cannot be said to be viruses. Additionally, the proffered “evidence” of viruses through “genomes" and animal experiments derives from methodologies with insufficient controls.
**

Full article:
 
The assumption that both you and Saunders are making is that the electron micrographs are recording images of biological viruses rather than other microbes. The 2 page statement that I link to and quote in the first post of this thread gets into this. I'll quote a bit of it here:
**
Perhaps the primary evidence that the pathogenic viral theory is problematic is that no published scientific paper has ever shown that particles fulfilling the definition of viruses have been directly isolated and purified from any tissues or bodily fluids of any sick human or animal. Using the commonly accepted definition of “isolation”, which is the separation of one thing from all other things, there is general agreement that this has never been done in the history of virology. Particles that have been successfully isolated through purification have not been shown to be replication-competent, infectious and disease-causing, hence they cannot be said to be viruses. Additionally, the proffered “evidence” of viruses through “genomes" and animal experiments derives from methodologies with insufficient controls.
**

Full article:

It would help your hopeless case if you would take a college level microbiology course. A logic course might also help.

Look at it this way: Tests to find out which pathogen is making you sick work because they are based on each organism's unique properties. For instance, if you go to your doc with a fever, cough, tons of mucus, fatigue, a rash, etc. -- how does she/he figure out how to treat you w/o knowing whether you've got a bacterial infection or a viral infection? They don't just guess.

What is your goal here anyways? The only thing you've managed to prove so far is that you might be trolling us. Are you?
 
The assumption that both you and Saunders are making is that the electron micrographs are recording images of biological viruses rather than other microbes. The 2 page statement that I link to and quote in the first post of this thread gets into this. I'll quote a bit of it here:
**
Perhaps the primary evidence that the pathogenic viral theory is problematic is that no published scientific paper has ever shown that particles fulfilling the definition of viruses have been directly isolated and purified from any tissues or bodily fluids of any sick human or animal. Using the commonly accepted definition of “isolation”, which is the separation of one thing from all other things, there is general agreement that this has never been done in the history of virology. Particles that have been successfully isolated through purification have not been shown to be replication-competent, infectious and disease-causing, hence they cannot be said to be viruses. Additionally, the proffered “evidence” of viruses through “genomes" and animal experiments derives from methodologies with insufficient controls.
**

Full article:
It would help your hopeless case if you would take a college level microbiology course. A logic course might also help.
Unsubstantiated assertions.
Look at it this way: Tests to find out which pathogen is making you sick work because they are based on each organism's unique properties.

There's never been any solid evidence that any microbe fits the definition of biological viruses, thus there is no solid evidence that these organisms exist at all.

For instance, if you go to your doc with a fever, cough, tons of mucus, fatigue, a rash, etc. -- how does she/he figure out how to treat you w/o knowing whether you've got a bacterial infection or a viral infection? They don't just guess.

In the case of Covid, the only way they could supposedly tell that you had the Cov 2 virus was through antibody and PCR tests. The problem is that there was never any solid evidence that those tests could find this alleged Cov 2 virus to begin with. A good article from Mike Stone on exposing the illusion that antibody and PCR tests provide any solid evidence that they are really finding anything of value:
 
All righty then. I see this rodeo's over. Hasta.

NLP9RKU.jpg
 
All righty then. I see this rodeo's over. Hasta.

NLP9RKU.jpg
Like I said, it's Flat Earth "Theory" on a microscopic level.

You can tell from the direct ignorance of actual evidence to a level where their arguments must ignore centuries worth of science. Notice how he took forever to respond to one aspect of my questions, and even that was notably ignorant of the information provided and evidence presented.

It takes a special kind of person to believe that viruses don't exist. No other thing can do what viruses do, we have pictures of them, we know their "M.O." as it were, we can isolate and vaccinate, if they are not constantly mutating like flu or covid we can even stop them in their tracks with the vaccination, if they are the "vaccination" becomes a treatment, IMO...
 
He doesn't need to conduct experiments in order to demonstrate that Pasteur didn't follow the scientific method to arrive at his stated conclusions. And if Pasteur didn't follow the scientific method, then his conclusions are by definition pseudoscientific.

The claim that Pasteur's conclusions are psuedoscintific is nothing but an unsubstantiated allegation. It relies on several unsubstantiated allegations. Mike Stone did not look at Pasteur's work. He relies on someone else who claimed they looked at it. What evidence is there that anyone has even seen all of Pasteur's work? It was donated 100 years after he died. How do you know none of it was lost or damaged? How do you know all of his work was actually donated and is available to view? How do you know that the person Mike Stone is relying on actually looked at any of the work of Pasteur, let alone looked at all of it?

You claim his conclusions are pseudoscientific because you like Mr Stone simply ignore all the other science that has been done since then to show his conclusions were true. This is another example of you using a single cherry picked unsubstantiated allegation to try to disprove 150 years of science.

Your arguments are by definition pseudoscientific if we accept your definition of that term. Since your position is pseudoscientific, it seems following your logic we can just say you are wrong about viruses.
 
No, but let's get into why you think so...



No, not what happened. The evidence required to persuade me that biological viruses are probably real is outlined in the 2 page statement from the group of doctors and other researchers linked to and quoted in the first post of this thread.
That would be the evidence that requires electron micrographs of viruses that when shown those electron micrographs you simply deny they are real. Circular reasoning on your part. You demand you be given evidence before you will believe and then when provided with that evidence you simply deny it is real.

Either you haven't read your links or you are completely unable to understand them. In either case it shows that your position on viruses is based on nothing other than your beliefs and is not supported by any evidence at all.
 
No, I'm pointing out that th ere is no solid evidence that the electron micrographs depict biological viruses. What you fail to realize is that there is no solid evidence that the micrographs have any solid evidence that the microbes they depict are biological viruses.
ROFLMAO... There you go again. Proving that you won't accept the evidence you demand be presented.

This is the classic conspiracy theory delusional thinking. Demand evidence and then when presented with evidence claim the evidence was faked.
 
What thing are you referring to?

Geebus... I have already posted this, you ignored it to answer what you thought would be easier to answer and still failed at that.

  • Attachment: Viruses begin by attaching to a specific host cell. They use proteins on their surface (like spikes or capsids) to bind to receptors on the target cell, which determines their host specificity (e.g., why some viruses infect humans and others infect plants or bacteria).
  • Entry: Once attached, viruses enter the host cell. This can happen through various mechanisms, such as direct fusion with the cell membrane, being engulfed by the cell (endocytosis), or injecting their genetic material (in the case of bacteriophages attacking bacteria).
  • Hijacking: Viruses lack the machinery to reproduce on their own, so they hijack the host cell’s resources. They insert their genetic material—either DNA or RNA—into the cell, taking over its metabolic processes to produce viral components (proteins, nucleic acids, etc.).
  • Replication: Using the host’s cellular machinery (like ribosomes and enzymes), the virus replicates its genetic material and assembles new virus particles (virions). This process often damages or destroys the host cell.
  • Release: Newly formed viruses exit the host cell, either by bursting it open (lysis) or budding off gradually, often killing the cell in the process. These new viruses then go on to infect other cells, repeating the cycle.
  • Spread: Viruses aim to spread to new hosts, which can occur through various means—airborne transmission (e.g., coughing), bodily fluids, contaminated surfaces, or vectors like mosquitoes.
 
Unsubstantiated assertions.


There's never been any solid evidence that any microbe fits the definition of biological viruses, thus there is no solid evidence that these organisms exist at all.
Unsubstantiated assertion on your part. There is a lot of solid evidence that a lot of microbes fit the definition of biological viruses. There is a lot of evidence including aver a thousand years of circumstantial evidence that viruses exist.
In the case of Covid, the only way they could supposedly tell that you had the Cov 2 virus was through antibody and PCR tests. The problem is that there was never any solid evidence that those tests could find this alleged Cov 2 virus to begin with. A good article from Mike Stone on exposing the illusion that antibody and PCR tests provide any solid evidence that they are really finding anything of value:
Denial of science on your part. Rather than rebut my argument that pointed out all the errors in the claim that pcr tests don't find the virus, you just ignore it for weeks and then come back to make the same ridiculous claim as if it is true and never been rebutted. Once again, your actions are nothing but classic conspiracy theory nonsense.

Once again, I get the sense you either didn't read your link from Mike Stone or you are incapable of understanding it. Stone makes no arguments about why a pcr test is invalid. He only repeats the same nonsense you spout here about no virus has been isolated and purified. That is nothing more than conspiracy theory ranting. Mike Stone is a science denier. He has conducted no science. He simply denies that the science that has been done exists.
 
He doesn't need to conduct experiments in order to demonstrate that Pasteur didn't follow the scientific method to arrive at his stated conclusions. And if Pasteur didn't follow the scientific method, then his conclusions are by definition pseudoscientific.
The claim that Pasteur's conclusions are psuedoscintific is nothing but an unsubstantiated allegation.
No, it's rooted in solid evidence that Mike Stone has provided. I'll quote some of this evidence below:
**
Did Pasteur and Koch provide the necessary scientific evidence required in order to confirm the germ hypothesis? What does it take to accept or reject a hypothesis? How does a hypothesis go on to become a scientific theory? In the first of a two-part examination of the germ hypothesis looking at the work of both men, we will begin by inspecting two of Pasteur's early attempts to prove his hypothesis in the cases of chicken cholera and rabies. We will investigate how he arrived at his germ hypothesis, and then look to see if his experimental evidence reflected anything that could be witnessed in nature. In doing so, we will find out whether or not Louis Pasteur was ever able to validate and confirm his germ hypothesis.

[snip]

According to French-American microbiologist Rene Dubos, the “central dogma of the germ theory is that each particular type of fermentation or of disease is caused by specific a kind of microbe.” While the idea that disease could be caused by invisible germs had been around since Girolamo Fracastoro published De Contagione et Contagiosis Morbis in 1546, French chemist Louis Pasteur conjured up his own germ hypothesis in the early 1860s based upon his work on fermentation. Granted, Pasteur had largely plagiarized from the work of French chemist and physician Antoine Bechamp, which he subsequently misinterpreted as Bechamp saw the microbes, which he referred to as microzymas, performing a necessary and vital function by breaking down substances and tissues in order to carry away dead cells and other waste products. In other words, germs are nature's clean-up crew and are not the cause of disease. As he noted in The Blood and its Third Anatomical Element, Bechamp viewed these processes as being born within all living things based upon the internal environment of the individual:

“The bacteridiae were not the cause of the diseased condition, but were one of its effects; proceeding from the morbid microzymas they were capable of inducing this diseased condition in the animal whose microzymas were in a condition to receive it. Hence it is seen that the alteration of natural animal matters is spontaneous, and justifies the old aphorism so concisely expressed by Pidoux: “Diseases are born of us and in us.”

“On the other hand, the disregard of this law of nature, the firm establishment whereof is completed by the present work, necessarily led M. Pasteur to deny the truth of the aphorism, and to imagine a pathogenic panspermy, as he had before conceived, a priori, that there was a panspermy of fermentations. That M. Pasteur after having been a sponteparist should reach such a conclusion was natural enough; he was neither physiologist nor physician, but only a chemist without any knowledge of comparative science.”
Pasteur, on the other hand, viewed the germs, such as yeasts involved in the fermentation of sugar to produce alcohol as well as other microbes responsible for putrefaction and the decay of tissues, as outside invaders. He proclaimed that the microbes, isolated from wounds and other degenerative tissues, were the cause of the destruction of the normal tissues, leading to disease. His views ran contrary to the popular notion at the time that microbes were the result of, and not the cause of, disease. Pasteur, along with a minority of other scientists, believed that diseases arose from the activities of these microorganisms, while opponents such as Bechamp and German pathologist Rudolf Virchow, believed that diseases arose from an imbalance in the internal state of the afflicted individual. As noted by Bechamp, just as Pasteur had assumed that there was a specific microbe for each ferment, he did the same by assuming that this must hold true for human and animal diseases as well.

However, there was a bit of a problem for the germ hypothesis as Pasteur was unable to ever observe any germ “infecting” anyone in order to cause disease. The only natural phenomenon that he could observe were the signs and symptoms of disease, and he tried to correlate a tentative relationship between microbes and disease based upon finding microbes in wounds and diseased tissues. As we know, correlation does not equal causation. The fact that microbes are found on the body of a decaying animal does not mean that the microbes caused the animal to die. The microbes occur after the fact in order to perform a necessary function, in this case decomposition. Rather than concluding that the microbes were present in wounds due to the need to heal the injury, Pasteur assumed that the microbes, which he claimed were present all around us within the air, became attracted to the wounds, taking advantage of the weakened state. With this a priori assumption in mind, Pasteur set out to create evidence to support his preconceived idea.

Testing the Germ Hypothesis​

Chicken Cholera​


While Pasteur had this idea of how diseases were caused by microorganisms as early as the 1860s, he didn't put his hypothesis to the test until the late 1870s. In an 1878 lecture The Germ Theory And Its Applications To Medicine And Surgery read before the French Academy of Sciences on April 29th, 1878, Pasteur had already hypothesized that there was a “virus” (i.e. some form of chemical poison as the word didn't mean an obligate intracellular parasite at that time) in the solutions of the bacterial cultures that he was working with. He then went on to claim that this poison would accumulate within the body of the animal as the bacteria grew. Interestingly, he then noted that his hypothesis presupposes the forming and necessary existence of the bacteria, thus admitting that his hypothesis was not based upon any observed natural phenomenon.

“There is only one possible hypothesis as to the existence of a virus in solution, and that is that such a substance, which was present in our experiment in nonfatal amounts, should be continuously furnished by the vibrio itself, during its growth in the body of the living animal. But it is of little importance since the hypothesis supposes the forming and necessary existence of the vibrio.”
Regardless, Pasteur's attempts to prove his germ hypothesis began later that same year with his study into the fowl disease known as chicken cholera. According to Gerald Geison's The Private Science of Louis Pasteur, in December of 1878, Pasteur was supplied some blood from a diseased chicken by Henri Toussaint, a French veterinarian who claimed to have cultured the responsible bacterium. However, another version states that Toussaint sent the heart of a guinea pig inoculated with the presumed germ of chicken cholera to Pasteur. Whatever the case, Pasteur immediately attempted isolating the microbe in a state of “purity” in order to demonstrate that it was the sole cause of chicken cholera. Upon doing so, he realized that the microbe developed more easily in neutral chicken broth than in the neutral urine that Toussaint utilized as his culture medium. While Pasteur thanked Toussaint, Geison noted that he “left little doubt that he considered Toussaint's work and techniques decidedly inferior to his own.” Pasteur eventually claimed that he could make successive cultures of what he referred to as the “virus” (i.e. poison) always in a state of “purity” in a medium of chicken broth from diseased chickens. He would then use this to inoculate healthy chickens and cause disease.
In his 1880 paper Sur les maladies virulentes et en particulier sur la maladie appelée vulgairement, Pasteur laid out his hypothesis on how he felt that the disease spreads. After unsuccessful attempts to make guinea pigs sick utilizing the cultured “organism,” he assumed that guinea pigs could become “infected” but were essentially “immune” besides the formation of abscesses. He assumed that the pus in abscesses left after injection contained the microbe responsible for the disease in a “pure state.” Pasteur then hypothesized that these pustules would burst open and spill the bacterial contents onto the food of the chicken and rabbits, contaminating them and causing disease.
[snip]


Thus, from Pasteur's first attempt to prove his germ hypothesis:

  • The experiment did not reflect his hypothesis as to how the disease spreads.
  • The agent utilized may have been nothing more than normal coagulated fibrin.
  • The route of exposure of feeding chickens diseased muscles and/or injecting the blood of diseased chickens into healthy ones was not a natural exposure route.
  • The act of injecting coagulated fibrin into a healthy animal can cause disease.
  • The vaccine, used as proof of his success in identifying the causative agent, was ineffective and unsuccessful despite claims stating otherwise.
  • Pasteur fabricated the account of how the attenuated vaccine came to be created.
**

Full article:

I find it interesting that originally, virus meant poison, as I think it is indeed poisons in the body that account for a lot of what biological viruses are purported to do.
 
The assumption that both you and Saunders are making is that the electron micrographs are recording images of biological viruses rather than other microbes.
You are the one making the assumptions by saying they aren't. Science gives you an easy way to show that they aren't viruses. You only need to present credible evidence that they are something else. Your credible evidence should include RNA and DNA sequencing of what you have images of. Failure on your part to do that shows you are not following the scientific method and as such you are worse than Pasteur and we now know that you are only doing pseudoscience based on your own logic.

The 2 page statement that I link to and quote in the first post of this thread gets into this. I'll quote a bit of it here:
**
Perhaps the primary evidence that the pathogenic viral theory is problematic is that no published scientific paper has ever shown that particles fulfilling the definition of viruses have been directly isolated and purified from any tissues or bodily fluids of any sick human or animal. Using the commonly accepted definition of “isolation”, which is the separation of one thing from all other things, there is general agreement that this has never been done in the history of virology. Particles that have been successfully isolated through purification have not been shown to be replication-competent, infectious and disease-causing, hence they cannot be said to be viruses. Additionally, the proffered “evidence” of viruses through “genomes" and animal experiments derives from methodologies with insufficient controls.
**

Full article:
The funny thing about that quote is.... well actually there are several funny things. (I'll just do 3)
1. It demands that viruses be proven by showing that they act like something that isn't a virus.
2. It completely changes the meaning of isolation. How do you get an electron micrograph of a virus if it isn't isolated?
3. This paragraph in no way supports your argument that the electron micrographs are anything else since it doesn't even mention electron micrographs.

Once again, I get the sense you either don't read your links or you have no idea what they contain because you don't understand them.
 
No, it's rooted in solid evidence that Mike Stone has provided. I'll quote some of this evidence below:
**
Did Pasteur and Koch provide the necessary scientific evidence required in order to confirm the germ hypothesis? What does it take to accept or reject a hypothesis? How does a hypothesis go on to become a scientific theory? In the first of a two-part examination of the germ hypothesis looking at the work of both men, we will begin by inspecting two of Pasteur's early attempts to prove his hypothesis in the cases of chicken cholera and rabies. We will investigate how he arrived at his germ hypothesis, and then look to see if his experimental evidence reflected anything that could be witnessed in nature. In doing so, we will find out whether or not Louis Pasteur was ever able to validate and confirm his germ hypothesis.

[snip]

According to French-American microbiologist Rene Dubos, the “central dogma of the germ theory is that each particular type of fermentation or of disease is caused by specific a kind of microbe.” While the idea that disease could be caused by invisible germs had been around since Girolamo Fracastoro published De Contagione et Contagiosis Morbis in 1546, French chemist Louis Pasteur conjured up his own germ hypothesis in the early 1860s based upon his work on fermentation. Granted, Pasteur had largely plagiarized from the work of French chemist and physician Antoine Bechamp, which he subsequently misinterpreted as Bechamp saw the microbes, which he referred to as microzymas, performing a necessary and vital function by breaking down substances and tissues in order to carry away dead cells and other waste products. In other words, germs are nature's clean-up crew and are not the cause of disease. As he noted in The Blood and its Third Anatomical Element, Bechamp viewed these processes as being born within all living things based upon the internal environment of the individual:

“The bacteridiae were not the cause of the diseased condition, but were one of its effects; proceeding from the morbid microzymas they were capable of inducing this diseased condition in the animal whose microzymas were in a condition to receive it. Hence it is seen that the alteration of natural animal matters is spontaneous, and justifies the old aphorism so concisely expressed by Pidoux: “Diseases are born of us and in us.”

“On the other hand, the disregard of this law of nature, the firm establishment whereof is completed by the present work, necessarily led M. Pasteur to deny the truth of the aphorism, and to imagine a pathogenic panspermy, as he had before conceived, a priori, that there was a panspermy of fermentations. That M. Pasteur after having been a sponteparist should reach such a conclusion was natural enough; he was neither physiologist nor physician, but only a chemist without any knowledge of comparative science.”
Pasteur, on the other hand, viewed the germs, such as yeasts involved in the fermentation of sugar to produce alcohol as well as other microbes responsible for putrefaction and the decay of tissues, as outside invaders. He proclaimed that the microbes, isolated from wounds and other degenerative tissues, were the cause of the destruction of the normal tissues, leading to disease. His views ran contrary to the popular notion at the time that microbes were the result of, and not the cause of, disease. Pasteur, along with a minority of other scientists, believed that diseases arose from the activities of these microorganisms, while opponents such as Bechamp and German pathologist Rudolf Virchow, believed that diseases arose from an imbalance in the internal state of the afflicted individual. As noted by Bechamp, just as Pasteur had assumed that there was a specific microbe for each ferment, he did the same by assuming that this must hold true for human and animal diseases as well.

However, there was a bit of a problem for the germ hypothesis as Pasteur was unable to ever observe any germ “infecting” anyone in order to cause disease. The only natural phenomenon that he could observe were the signs and symptoms of disease, and he tried to correlate a tentative relationship between microbes and disease based upon finding microbes in wounds and diseased tissues. As we know, correlation does not equal causation. The fact that microbes are found on the body of a decaying animal does not mean that the microbes caused the animal to die. The microbes occur after the fact in order to perform a necessary function, in this case decomposition. Rather than concluding that the microbes were present in wounds due to the need to heal the injury, Pasteur assumed that the microbes, which he claimed were present all around us within the air, became attracted to the wounds, taking advantage of the weakened state. With this a priori assumption in mind, Pasteur set out to create evidence to support his preconceived idea.

Testing the Germ Hypothesis​

Chicken Cholera​


While Pasteur had this idea of how diseases were caused by microorganisms as early as the 1860s, he didn't put his hypothesis to the test until the late 1870s. In an 1878 lecture The Germ Theory And Its Applications To Medicine And Surgery read before the French Academy of Sciences on April 29th, 1878, Pasteur had already hypothesized that there was a “virus” (i.e. some form of chemical poison as the word didn't mean an obligate intracellular parasite at that time) in the solutions of the bacterial cultures that he was working with. He then went on to claim that this poison would accumulate within the body of the animal as the bacteria grew. Interestingly, he then noted that his hypothesis presupposes the forming and necessary existence of the bacteria, thus admitting that his hypothesis was not based upon any observed natural phenomenon.

“There is only one possible hypothesis as to the existence of a virus in solution, and that is that such a substance, which was present in our experiment in nonfatal amounts, should be continuously furnished by the vibrio itself, during its growth in the body of the living animal. But it is of little importance since the hypothesis supposes the forming and necessary existence of the vibrio.”
Regardless, Pasteur's attempts to prove his germ hypothesis began later that same year with his study into the fowl disease known as chicken cholera. According to Gerald Geison's The Private Science of Louis Pasteur, in December of 1878, Pasteur was supplied some blood from a diseased chicken by Henri Toussaint, a French veterinarian who claimed to have cultured the responsible bacterium. However, another version states that Toussaint sent the heart of a guinea pig inoculated with the presumed germ of chicken cholera to Pasteur. Whatever the case, Pasteur immediately attempted isolating the microbe in a state of “purity” in order to demonstrate that it was the sole cause of chicken cholera. Upon doing so, he realized that the microbe developed more easily in neutral chicken broth than in the neutral urine that Toussaint utilized as his culture medium. While Pasteur thanked Toussaint, Geison noted that he “left little doubt that he considered Toussaint's work and techniques decidedly inferior to his own.” Pasteur eventually claimed that he could make successive cultures of what he referred to as the “virus” (i.e. poison) always in a state of “purity” in a medium of chicken broth from diseased chickens. He would then use this to inoculate healthy chickens and cause disease.
In his 1880 paper Sur les maladies virulentes et en particulier sur la maladie appelée vulgairement, Pasteur laid out his hypothesis on how he felt that the disease spreads. After unsuccessful attempts to make guinea pigs sick utilizing the cultured “organism,” he assumed that guinea pigs could become “infected” but were essentially “immune” besides the formation of abscesses. He assumed that the pus in abscesses left after injection contained the microbe responsible for the disease in a “pure state.” Pasteur then hypothesized that these pustules would burst open and spill the bacterial contents onto the food of the chicken and rabbits, contaminating them and causing disease.
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Thus, from Pasteur's first attempt to prove his germ hypothesis:

  • The experiment did not reflect his hypothesis as to how the disease spreads.
  • The agent utilized may have been nothing more than normal coagulated fibrin.
  • The route of exposure of feeding chickens diseased muscles and/or injecting the blood of diseased chickens into healthy ones was not a natural exposure route.
  • The act of injecting coagulated fibrin into a healthy animal can cause disease.
  • The vaccine, used as proof of his success in identifying the causative agent, was ineffective and unsuccessful despite claims stating otherwise.
  • Pasteur fabricated the account of how the attenuated vaccine came to be created.
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I find it interesting that originally, virus meant poison, as I think it is indeed poisons in the body that account for a lot of what biological viruses are purported to do.
Highlight what you think is actual evidence in your screed?

Frankly, I see no evidence at all. I simply see denial of science.
Pasteur couldn't see viruses because they are not visible in a microscope available to Pastuer. The fact that he couldn't see them doesn't prove they don't exist. It is simply denial on your part of what viruses and their characteristics are. A characteristic of viruses is that they are so small they can't be viewed with an optical microscope.

The fact that Pasteur's first experiment failed doesn't prove anything and isn't evidence of anything other than a failed experiment. That would be like arguing because the first attempt at nuclear fission failed it proves that nuclear bombs don't exist. It is a nonsense argument that is certainly not based on evidence.
 
Geebus... I have already posted this, you ignored it to answer what you thought would be easier to answer and still failed at that.

  • Attachment: Viruses begin by attaching to a specific host cell. They use proteins on their surface (like spikes or capsids) to bind to receptors on the target cell, which determines their host specificity (e.g., why some viruses infect humans and others infect plants or bacteria).
  • Entry: Once attached, viruses enter the host cell. This can happen through various mechanisms, such as direct fusion with the cell membrane, being engulfed by the cell (endocytosis), or injecting their genetic material (in the case of bacteriophages attacking bacteria).
  • Hijacking: Viruses lack the machinery to reproduce on their own, so they hijack the host cell’s resources. They insert their genetic material—either DNA or RNA—into the cell, taking over its metabolic processes to produce viral components (proteins, nucleic acids, etc.).
  • Replication: Using the host’s cellular machinery (like ribosomes and enzymes), the virus replicates its genetic material and assembles new virus particles (virions). This process often damages or destroys the host cell.
  • Release: Newly formed viruses exit the host cell, either by bursting it open (lysis) or budding off gradually, often killing the cell in the process. These new viruses then go on to infect other cells, repeating the cycle.
  • Spread: Viruses aim to spread to new hosts, which can occur through various means—airborne transmission (e.g., coughing), bodily fluids, contaminated surfaces, or vectors like mosquitoes.
It is this process that shows why DrSamBailey's requirements for isolation are invalid.

  • Release: Newly formed viruses exit the host cell, either by bursting it open (lysis) or budding off gradually, often killing the cell in the process. These new viruses then go on to infect other cells, repeating the cycle.
Because the virus is inside the cell it is impossible to isolate the virus from the cell without destroying the cell. Virus deniers simply ignore this fact about viruses and say because you can't separate the virus from the cell and have both intact then viruses can't exist.
 
It is this process that shows why DrSamBailey's requirements for isolation are invalid.

  • Release: Newly formed viruses exit the host cell, either by bursting it open (lysis) or budding off gradually, often killing the cell in the process. These new viruses then go on to infect other cells, repeating the cycle.
Because the virus is inside the cell it is impossible to isolate the virus from the cell without destroying the cell. Virus deniers simply ignore this fact about viruses and say because you can't separate the virus from the cell and have both intact then viruses can't exist.
This is inane, they literally can isolate the DNA from the virus, this ignores advances in DNA we use daily. This is the equivalent of ignoring the big blue marble image taken by an astronaut while he was orbiting the Moon. They can isolate the virus as it exits, they can isolate its DNA from the original DNA of the cell, it uses the cell to multiply so it can infect more cells... replicating itself by hijacking the mitosis process in the cell.

Folks like this will literally go out on a lake, prove the curvature of the Earth on accident and then pretend it was the experiment that was flawed rather than their ill conceived hypothesis.
 
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