the trouble is we have the evidnece the science was not the best information.
which part of that don't you understand?
LOL you idiot
APP - Follow the money - this is what Copenhagen is really about
- Thread starter cancel2 2022
- Start date
the trouble is we have the evidnece the science was not the best information.
which part of that don't you understand?
LOL you idiot
cancel2 2022
Canceled
Well, I guess I have it all wrong then and Goldman Sachs isn't a predatory behemoth that wishes to eventually have its tentacles into all of government be it Democrat or Republican but a benevolent organisation working only for the greater good of man. I would have also mentioned Lehman Brothers but they are sadly no longer with us and the kind chaps at Goldman came to the rescue and scooped up their business. By the way, I have every few allusions that the Democrats are that much better than Republicans when it comes to big money, they are all Americans after all.
cawacko
Well-known member
I didn't say anything about Goldman Sachs the company. I simply responded to the idea that there aren't Democrats at Goldman.
cancel2 2022
Canceled
Come on, you know that I like you but I never said there are no Democrats just I doubt there are very many. I could be wrong of course.
cawacko
Well-known member
No I know. My initial reaction would be that Wall St is full of Republicans too. The reality though is there are a lot of Democrats. A lot of Democrats are capitalists who want money and success just as much as the Republican next to them. Remember I live in San Francisco which is home to a lot of rich Democrats.
cancel2 2022
Canceled
No I know. My initial reaction would be that Wall St is full of Republicans too. The reality though is there are a lot of Democrats. A lot of Democrats are capitalists who want money and success just as much as the Republican next to them. Remember I live in San Francisco which is home to a lot of rich Democrats.
Well, my contention is that Goldman Sachs is a pernicious avaricious monster who are primarily interested in controlling the levers of power and will do whatever is needed to achieve its aims. How that squares with being a Democrat who believes in justice and fairness is beyond me but maybe it is part of the Clinton philosophy of compartmentalisation. Maybe they all want to get filthy stinking rich first and then pay for their sins with acts of altruism when they have finished shafting the world's economy.
cancel2 2022
Canceled
Returning to the original topic, what are your thoughts on carbon trading?
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
As William Felt aka Deep Throat said about Nixon and Watergate, you should always follow the money. So applying this principle to Copenhagen it can be seen why so many big businesses and banks were represented there. They needed to renew parts of the Kyoto Treaty which dealt with carbon trading as these are due to expire in 2012. This looks set to take over from derivatives and securisation as yet another way to make money out of nothing.
RICHARD D. NORTH: Saved - the trillion-pound trade in carbon
By Richard D. North, Political Analyst
Last updated at 1:48 AM on 20th December 2009
The city of Copenhagen 'is a crime scene tonight, with the guilty men and women fleeing to the airport'. So said John Sauven of Greenpeace UK after the climate summit broke up. And he is right.
This is the biggest heist in history. As they poured carbon over snow-covered Denmark from their gas-guzzling jets, world leaders were congratulating themselves on securing a deal which will make their backers and financiers a trillion pounds a year. These riches will come from buying and selling permits, the so-called 'carbon credits' which allow industry and electricity generators in developed countries to emit carbon dioxide.
Hot air: Demonstrators protest against climate deal in Copenhagen
Forget 'Big Oil' - this is 'Big Carbon' making the most of a 'business opportunity' that was created by the first climate treaty at Kyoto in 1997.
The frenzied negotiations we have just seen were never about 'saving the planet'. They were always about money. At stake was this new 'climate change industry' which last year ripped off £129billion from the global economy and is heading for that trillion-pound bonanza by 2020 - but only if the key parts of the Kyoto treaty could be renewed.
With the treaty due to expire by 2012, unless it was replaced, the money tree would fail. Hence, all the power and vested interests of big business were brought into play, stoking up the panic over climate change to create an atmosphere where the parties could keep the money flowing.
Carbon Trading is barely 13 years old yet the scale of the industry is astonishing. Overall control lies with an obscure committee created by Kyoto, The Clean Development Mechanism Executive. It issues firms with the 'golden tickets' known as Certified Emission Reductions (CERs).
At Kyoto, Western governments set targets to cut emissions. In order to achieve this, they set 'caps' on the amount of CO2 a company can produce.
However, if they go over these limits, they may buy permits from firms who have not used up their quotas.
The developing world is not subject to the same caps as the West so they can generate CERs which are then traded by banks.
The actual emissions don't change, it's merely a matter of how much you have to pay for them. For example, in 2006, the NHS spent £6million on carbon permits to keep patients warm.
Cheers: Energy Minister Ed Miliband, right, applauds with other delegates as the Copenhagen accord is adopted
This was the real business in Copenhagen last week. The game was given away by the head of carbon markets for Merrill Lynch, Abyd Karmali - who is also president of the Carbon Markets and Investors Association.
As campaigners worried about the prospect of the talks failing, Karmali was happily explaining that the envoys would probably decide to extend the 'Kyoto Protocol' even if they could not reach an agreement on emission cuts. And it is those words which revealed what was really going on.
The carbon permits come mainly from rich industrialists in the Third World and state enterprises in China, created out of mythical savings in carbon emissions.
This is precisely what is happening in the west-India state of Gujarat, where the giant Tata conglomerate - which is closing down the Corus steel works in Redcar - is building a giant new coal-fired power plant.
It is four times the size of the proposed Kingsnorth power station in Kent, to which the Greens so violently objected.
Tata's new plant, which is the same design as Kingsnorth, will increase India's carbon emissions by 643million tons over its lifetime, and produce in a year CO2 equivalent to an eighth of the entire UK electricity industry.
Yet because it is more efficient than conventional plants, it is deemed to reduce the average carbon emissions of India's electricity generation system per unit of electricity supplied.
By this convoluted reasoning, not only does it qualify for cheap, green development loans from the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank, it will be given over £500million in free carbon credits by the UN to be sold, via brokers and financiers who all take their cuts. They will be bought by the likes of British electricity generators.
That is but one example of the insane system created by the Kyoto treaty, which was renewed in Copenhagen last week.
God you're an idiot. It does not "make money out of nothing". It reduces total economic efficiency by making the cost of buying carbon much higher. That is a COST. There is more total money on the line AGAINST this deal than FOR it.
This is a disgusting misrepresentation of the plan, from an economically illiterate individual.
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
Copenhagen isn't "science", it's "banking"......
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
it reduces nothing.....it merely increases....costs....
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
The far left is opposed to carbon markets finding the most economically efficient way to reduce carbon for much the same reason as why they can't understand the free market.
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
The cost of buying carbon.
cancel2 2022
Canceled
Blimey son, steady on, I quite like you but I might have to reconsider. It is money out of nothing in the sense that there is nothing tangible being bought or sold.
cawacko
Well-known member
I'm embarrassed to say I really don't fully understand carbon trading. I can't even really offer you an opinion on it.
Good Luck
New member
Yes, indeed, follow the money. Follow the money demanded by governments for permission to produce a naturally occurring compound in the production of energy and other economic material items. We have the strong possibility these carbon tax laws will be generating trillions of dollars of new revenue for governments world wide as well as a new multi-billion dollar speculation market for the investment world. Yet people stick stubbornly to the belief the only possible motive for pushing the AGW scam is altruistic concern for the Earth?
Anyone want some swamp land? Never get a better deal than now.
Anyone want some swamp land? Never get a better deal than now.
Good Luck
New member
A speculation company buys a bunch of carbon credits from various governments then resells them at a profit.
Very similar to how oil speculators can drive the price of oil through the roof by repeatedly buying and selling a tanker full of oil even as it steams its way across the Atlantic.
With carbon trading a "carbon credit" (where do these assholes get their ideas? The Mafia would be proud.) may be purchased and resold a number of times before it is actually used by a facility that needs it to pay for their "crime" of producing "too much" CO2.
Last edited:
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
I'm sorry.
Carbon trading increases the cost of doing business with carbon. Companies are naturally going to come up with schemes to reduce their costs, and the ones most efficient at reducing carbon are going to make the most profit.
It creates artificial demand for reducing carbon. That's not "money for nothing", it's "money for reducing carbon".
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
The industries that are negatively impacted by being "capped" and being forced to buy carbon credits represent more money than the entire carbon trading scheme being proposed, though.
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
We actually already have a similar system in place in the US for sulfur dioxide, and it's worked wonderfully and nearly gotten rid of the entire acid rain problem.