Going out of town for the holiday's

uscitizen said:
Just shakes head....
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Same here.

Look. She and I have been round and round about this. She keeps calling socialist nations "communist" so she can claim socialism never failed. I keep pointing out that it has. Your comprehension issue notwithstanding, it is a consistent theme in conversations between her and myself.

One more time, present me with evidence of a failed libertarian system that I am pretending doesn't exist, or shut up. Your point was that I make some sort of "same claim". Except my point was they claim failed socialist systems were not "socialist". So, put up or shut up.
 
But you stance was that since there had never been a true communist nation that was the argument of why none could prove they would fail. Same as with a Libertarian Government.

that is until you figured out it would apply to a libertarian govt as well.
 
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uscitizen said:
But you stance was that since there had never been a true communist nation that was the argument of why none could prove they would fail. Same as with a Libertarian Government.

that is until you figured out it would apply to a libertarian govt as well.
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No my stance was that socialism is failure personified and they constantly try to rename it "communist" and pretend that it hasn't failed. So, either present us with a libertarian society that I have pretended wasn't libertarian that has failed or admit you are crappy at analogy.
 
Damocles said:
Same here.

Look. She and I have been round and round about this. She keeps calling socialist nations "communist" so she can claim socialism never failed. I keep pointing out that it has. Your comprehension issue notwithstanding, it is a consistent theme in conversations between her and myself.

One more time, present me with evidence of a failed libertarian system that I am pretending doesn't exist, or shut up. Your point was that I make some sort of "same claim". Except my point was they claim failed socialist systems were not "socialist". So, put up or shut up.
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Democratic socialists rarely call for complete nationalization of industry.

That doesn't mean the USSR, CHina, and Cuba aren't socialist. The parties in those nations are called the "communist party", but that's because communism is the goal. In all of the literature in reference to the state itself, they refer to the state as socialist.

Democratic socialist seem to think that moderate socialization is the goal in itself, and don't want anything beyond that. I don't see why they don't just call themselves social Democrats and get it over with.
 
Damocles said:
No my stance was that socialism is failure personified and they constantly try to rename it "communist" and pretend that it hasn't failed. So, either present us with a libertarian society that I have pretended wasn't libertarian that has failed or admit you are crappy at analogy.
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why don't you present us with a libertarian govt that has succeded and would be acceptable today ?
 
Damocles said:
Because I can't. I lament that consistently. We'll see how the Lakota does.
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They will have to do great with no taxes. But then they will need favored nation trading status to be able to comepete with China.

but then you are saying that the Lakota nation is a libertarian nation ?
 
uscitizen said:
They will have to do great with no taxes. But then they will need favored nation trading status to be able to comepete with China.

but then you are saying that the Lakota nation is a libertarian nation ?
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Currently, yes. But we'll see if they remain as such.
 
SouthernBelle82 said:
*sigh* Cuba is Communism. I'm not a Communist. God I fucking hate repeating myself to boneheads.
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They consider themselves Socialist. In fact, there's propoganda billboards all over the place there proclaiming "Socialismo! Somos todo o nosotros no son nada!" They're everywhere, but nary a one proclaiming anything about Communism. I'll let them decide what they are, rather than some nameless, faceless poster on the internets.


And uscitizen, stop being so deliberately obtuse.
 
Marx, the father of both socialism and communism, defined socialism as a transitory phase with an ultimate goal of Communism.

So acting like socialism and communism are two completely distinct ideologies is silly, since the father of both said that one was merely a pathway to the other.
 
Marx is in no way, shape, or form the "father" of socialism and communism. The paris commune was formed DECADES before he even started writing.
 
Beefy said:
They consider themselves Socialist. In fact, there's propoganda billboards all over the place there proclaiming "Socialismo! Somos todo o nosotros no son nada!" They're everywhere, but nary a one proclaiming anything about Communism. I'll let them decide what they are, rather than some nameless, faceless poster on the internets.


And uscitizen, stop being so deliberately obtuse.
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She really doesn't listen to us at all, does she? I know what she's talking about. But to try to completely dissacociate the concepts is idiotic. There are many forms of each, and she just happens to take on the form that most people who label themselves "Democratic socialists" take on. And "Democratic socialists", IMHO, aren't even really socialists anyway, since they believe in a free market and don't see Marxist communism as an eventual goal. They're closer to extreme social democrats than to most strains of socialism. Same thing with the Eurocommunists.
 
I forgot to add that even though China isn't truly a Communist country (because of private businesses) the only country today that truly is Communist is Cuba. Of course I wouldn't want to live in Cuba for anything from what I know of Cuba from my own research and a family friend who spent some time there as a missionary.

Damocles said:
It's what they use as an excuse to show that the philosophy hasn't proved to be an immense failure.
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Once again you're forgetting Venezuela.... They're pretty much becoming a socialist country and doing quite well for themselves. You love acting like they don't exist don't you? And once again people have turned a simple thread into a thread about socialism. *sigh* It's becoming very old and tiring! Why don't ya'll start one huge thread on socialism and keep it there? Good freakin grief. You have to ruin every single thread I go in. Get over it already! Would you like it Damocles if I went into every thread you started and bitched about libertarinsm? Wouldn't it get boring and old?

Damocles said:
Better than adopting one that is totally full of fail, and has consistently failed since its inception. It doesn't even take a "leap of faith" to know what history teaches us.
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