America fell into depressions that were more brutal than the Great Depression with barter and currencies backed by gold. Europe had the dark ages, partly because of barter and currencies backed by gold. It was hardly an enlightened, or free time.
Here's what the problem with money is
- Thread starter AlexandrosTsolis
- Start date
America fell into depressions that were more brutal than the Great Depression with barter and currencies backed by gold. Europe had the dark ages, partly because of barter and currencies backed by gold. It was hardly an enlightened, or free time.
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
It wasn't from currency. It was from too much speculation on wallstreet
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
Walt is a big stereotypical swiss.
The banks collapsed from deflation, not Wall Street speculation.
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
Which occured from deleveraging from overvalued, bubbubbled up asset classes
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
Sound currency did not cause the depression.
That's asinine.
That's asinine.
Gold is not "sound". It is gold. It fluctuates wildly for its own reasons, which is very unsound for the economy.
The solution to the deflation that caused the Great Depression was to get rid of the gold standard. When gold goes deflationary, it becomes self reinforcing.
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
No it wasn't
It was one of many possible reactions.
And regardless of that reaction, it doesn't mean sound currency caused the depression.
Into the Night
Verified User
Money is a medium of barter. As long as people trust it as such, it has value.
It is a unit of account. You can set a price with it.
You will find that people like the convenience of using a medium of exchange like this instead of setting price in chickens or cows or pounds of corn or wheat.
It doesn't have to be fiat money. Fiat money has it's own problems, but like any money, as long as people trust it, it has value.
The dollar is losing trust. People are already looking to use something else as money. Some people, like you, prefer barter. Fine. If it works for you, use it. You don't, however, speak for everyone.
Money is not parasitic. It is simply a medium of exchange. People themselves will decide what to use for money, whether it's a fiat currency, gold, silver, clamshells, blockchain systems, seeds, or whatever.
A government may try to demand a certain fiat, but the people will decide in the end, and there's really nothing the government can do about it.
Into the Night
Verified User
Like usual, AssHat is just using buzzwords, without meaning.
A bank account is by choice. Not everyone has them, and not everyone needs them or even want them.
Money is a convenience. He blundered into that one accurately, but he's actually trying to argue that convenience is somehow 'evil'.
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
fiat money is parasitic.
it will be the same if corporatist anarchocapitalists insists bitcoin is legal tender.
Into the Night
Verified User
Certainly one way to put it! Money is old. It has been around for a very long time. Whether it's gold, silver, diamonds, cigarettes, candy bars, some kind of certificate (paper money), or bits in a computer; it all performs the same task. It provides a medium of exchange the is more convenient and practical than direct barter (money is indirect barter), and it provides a way to set a price (or more accurately, to agree on a price) using a uniform unit.
Very true. There ARE various communes out there that try to live this way, but they are small for a reason.
Very true. Indeed, that's how money got started in the first place! People have used money for some 5000 years at least. No one dictated it. They simply chose to use it.
This is actually not quite true.
Using gold as money has certain advantages:
* You can't just print gold. You have to mine and refine it.
* Gold is gold. It doesn't matter what mine it comes from or how many miners there are.
* It's purity is easily tested. It is easily weighed. It is malleable. It is easily coined. It has uses in industry.
Gold, like any money, can be stolen. In the United States, it was stolen by FDR. That's when fiat money was declared the legal tender in the United States (unconstitutionally). That's also when Fort Knox was built, to house all that stolen gold.
A gold standard does not prevent modern banking practices, including loans, interest, accounting, or even the use of cash machines.
Gold has some disadvantages as money as well:
* It is heavy. This is compensated by the fact that gold is very valuable. You don't have to carry much of it with you.
* It is valuable...too valuable, for day to day transactions. This is why silver is also typically used along with a gold standard. It is more practical for day to day transactions. The current price of an ounce of gold in dollars is around $1800. The current price of an ounce of silver in dollars is $22.50. As the value of the dollar falls, due to just printing more and more of them with no corresponding increase in wealth, that same ounce of gold or silver is worth more dollars. This value is so high that it's practical for large transactions such as buying a car or a house, but not for day to day use.
* Anyone hoarding gold or silver is no different from someone that hoards dollars, except that what he is hoarding is losing value if it happens to be dollars. This happens to be why saving money is so ill advised. It is better to invest with it. Convert it to fine art, diamonds, real estate, business activity, precious metals, anything that holds value, even if someone is hoarding it.
Gold is not 'outdated'. Neither is silver. If people turn to using it as a currency (some already have, even some nations), it can be a practical currency.
The 'elites' never do well, in the end. Elitism is the result of bigotry. No one is 'elite', though some people think they are 'elite'.
Inflation is a relative term.
A dollar is a dollar is a dollar. It's only value AS a dollar is the ability to convert it to something else (to buy something with it). As faith in the dollar wanes, it takes more dollars to buy the same thing.
The key thing here is that money is NOT wealth. It is just a medium of exchange. It is used to TRADE wealth.
If money is being created faster than a corresponding increase in wealth (only capitalism can create wealth out of nothing), then you have inflation.
If money is being created slower than a corresponding increase in wealth, then you have deflation.
No government can predict how much money to create. This is the basic problem with communism. The Fed, for example, can only act to close the barn door long after the horse is gone. It is reactive. It cannot predict the future of wealth. That's not the only problem with the Fed.
The government can 'print' money (by telling the Fed to raise M1) any time it wants to. It does this by telling the Fed to write a check to the government. That check will be honored by the Fed. As the government spends that money, it circulates into society, and there are more dollars than before. If wealth has not increased as much for that extra money, inflation occurs.
The government puts itself in a trap this way. It too must buy stuff just to operate. Paper, guns, tanks, computers, pay for the electricity, etc. Therefore it too sees higher prices. It must print MORE money to cover it. This sets off a spiral that is destructive. It's called a Cash Crash.
There are only two other ways a government can raise money: borrow it, or tax for it (steal it).
Borrowing money sets off a similar destructive spiral. That way causes a Debt Crash.
Taxing money sets off a revolt, sooner or later. That revolt may become violent. This sets off a Tax Crash.
The federal government is broke. It has been for a long time. It is trying to print it's way out of its difficulties. It won't work. It will result eventually in a Cash Crash. People will simply no longer accept the dollar as a useful currency. They will use something else. People are already investigating possible alternatives. When they settle on one or two currencies, there is NOTHING the government can do about it.
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
trusting convenience over actual long term value is stupid.
propagating that convenience rules all is deception and evil.
Into the Night
Verified User
You don't like either. Fine. That's your choice. YOU don't get to dictate what people want to use for money, however. THEY will make that choice, collectively, and there is NOTHING you can do about it.
Into the Night
Verified User
It does help to be brief, if possible.
Into the Night
Verified User
Money doesn't actually reduce the time or effort to trade. What it DOES do is facilitate trade by unifying the medium of trade.
You still have to have something to trade. Some product or service that people actually want. The effort to produce that has not changed.
Every buyer is also a seller. To get enough to buy something (even in barter), you have to sell something (even in barter).
Even if you hoard dollars, you have to buy them. To do that you have to sell something.
Into the Night
Verified User
Define 'inflation hawk'. Insulting people is not going to get you anywhere.
The so-called Keynesian economic model is not a workable one. It completely fails to take into account that capitalism is the only economic system that creates wealth. Keynesian economics is actually a form of communism. By printing money to 'stimulate the economy', all it does is cause inflation. Wealth can only be created by capitalism. That is, it can only be created by everyday people producing products or services that other people actually want to buy, voluntarily (for both buyer and seller!).
The so-called Austrian economic model is more in keeping with what capitalism is and what it does. It doesn't depend on fiat anything, or on a government 'stimulating' anything.
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
I can speak truth. truth will out in the end.
fiat money is totalitarianism and people don't want that.
Into the Night
Verified User
Buzzword fallacies.
Money is not necessarily fiat money. Whether fiat money or some other currency is used, money is money. As long as people accept and trust it's value as a medium of exchange, it will continue to be money. PEOPLE decide what they will use as money (even if it's a fiat currency). YOU don't get to choose for them. You are not a dictator.
Not all digital currency is fiat. Blockchain currencies such as Bitcoin are not controlled by anyone. Only 21 million Bitcoins will ever exist. That is the limit of the algorithm defining that particular blockchain. There is some interest by some people to use this as a currency. This has some advantages:
* It is easy to charge any fraction of a Bitcoin. This means setting a price for a product or service is easy.
* It is reasonably easy to conduct a transaction. You simply request a transfer from your digital wallet to another digital wallet, electronically signing the transaction request. Everyone has a copy of the blockchain, which acts a ledger, showing which wallets have how much Bitcoin is in them. Your transfer request must be 'countersigned' by others on the blockchain, typically a miner. Miners charge a small fee for this service. This countersigning is simply like a vote, approving the transaction. It is essentially a consensus among Bitcoin users. They are simply agreeing that the transaction request does indeed follow the blockchain algorithm requirements.
* It is as available as the internet.
* YOU own the Bitcoin in your wallet. YOU own and control your own wallet. Sure, you can use a 'rented wallet' on some website, but you don't have to. The only people that have access to that wallet is YOU or who you designate.
Bitcoin has some disadvantages too:
* It can be slow to get a transaction countersigned. As the blockchain lengthens, this will get slower and slower. There is no good solution to this yet. Perhaps something like DNS could help solve this problem. Some methods along these lines are being tried. Success is rather marginal at the moment.
* Since you own and control your own wallet, you are completely responsible for it. That private and public keys to that wallet are, quite literally, key. Losing them means you lose the contents of that wallet. There is no one to ask if you forget the password. Some wallet software uses long key word lists that you can use to rebuild the private and public keys for that wallet. If you forget these, you are screwed. The wallet is dead, and all the Bitcoin in it is also dead. That Bitcoin can never be replaced, not even by a miner.
* It is new technology. A lot of people don't trust it, simply because they don't understand how it works. This same problem does occur with fiat currencies also, however, including the dollar.
* It requires access to the internet to conduct the transaction request and to get it countersigned. This is not always convenient. Even hardware wallets or 'cold' wallets (offline wallets) require the internet at some point.
The dollar is digital fiat currency. Most dollars are just bits in a computer. Paper dollars are a small percentage of dollars. Like any fiat currency, it is based on communism.
Truck Fump / h1b
Verified User
yes. you support fiat currency.