Here's what the problem with money is

[Into the Night]

barter forces people to work out their transactions carefully, instead of just leaving the details to dictators,

plus,

fiat currency is susceptible to rampant abuse by the powers who create it.

inflation is elite theft from the entire population.

You are building a false dilemma. There a lot of currencies that are not fiat currencies and are not controlled by any central authority in any way.

Yet inflation can exist even with such a currency. Inflation can exist with barter as well. Maybe there are too many chickens around, and all you have to trade with is chickens. No one really wants your chickens, or you will have to use more of them to conduct the trade.

 

[Into the Night]

There's no room for banker parasites in a barter economy.

No one forces you to use any bank.

Keep it in a vault. Keep it under your mattress. Stow it in a secret place. Put it in a bank. It's up to you.

 

[Into the Night]

That was not actually offering your single most important point. It is a question. But...you seem to be asking, "If you can do a particular thing two different ways...and one way is easier than the other...would you do it the easy way or the less easy way?"

My answer to that would be: All other things being equal, I would do it the easier way.

Not sure where you are going with that...and not sure who would answer any other way.

I still would prefer you actually state your single most important point...rather than ask a question.



If you are asking if I have ever considered the benefit of money over trade in commerce, I have. I have a degree (long ago) in economics...and have written lots about it.

I just do not understand what in the hell you are talking about.

You ramble when you write, so I want your point presented more clearly. PLEASE...state your single most important point. Let's discuss that...and then move onto the next point.

You will find that claims of degrees, certifications, or any other sanctification means nothing on blind forums such as this one.
You will also find that a degree, certification, or license is really not proof of competence.

College degrees are sold like anything else. The 'education biz' is like any other 'biz'. Many college degrees are worse than worthless. They convince the poor schmuck holding it that he is an 'expert'.

 

[Walt]

A bank account is by choice. Not everyone has them, and not everyone needs them or even want them.

Where you will start having a problem is when sellers no longer accept cash. It is their choice, but also means that buyers are forced to use digital money.

I disagree with something else. Many states require the same price for both cash and credit. Credit card companies charge the retailers 1% to 5% of sales. The credit cards give me the money in cash back programs. I pay off the statement balance (but not the current balance) every month, so pay no interest, but get a revolving one month loan for free.

So basically, people who pay cash are being forced to pay me thousands of dollars a year by the state governments. I benefit, but I still disagree with it. Much like a disagree with the free parking I get through zoning laws.

 

[Into the Night]

Wow, having a bank account is totalitarianism? Who would have known?

He is a bit confused. Banks, in and of themselves, are just another business, providing a service. Like any business, they charge a fee for that service.
Banks in the United States, however, are themselves subject to the Fed and all of its rules. The Fed is what prints all the fiat currency (communism), and tells banks how to conduct their business, including who they can sell to, who they must buy from, their rates, and even in some case their hours of operation. This is fascism.

Fascism is government manipulation of markets.
Communism is government ownership of markets.

Both are socialism. Both involve theft of wealth.

It is not the banks. It is the Fed.

 

[Into the Night]

as it is now, keynesians are driving humanity off a cliff of banker fascist fiat currency totalitarianism.

Fiat currency is mindless totalitarianism.

the world did just fine with barter and currencies backed by tangibles.

Not the banks. The Fed and the government. It is they that are trying to print themselves out of the situation they are in. It is they that is trying to use Keynesian economics to 'stimulate' the economy. It doesn't work.

Yes. The world did just fine with a currency that is not fiat. As far as 'tangibles' is concerned, what is 'tangible' about, say, gold as a currency? If people decide to use it as the prevailing currency, what is it that gives gold its value as a currency?

You say you want direct barter. Is gold not an item to barter for? Is it somehow barred from being something you can barter with?

If you can barter for gold, or use gold to barter with, why not dollars? Why not yen? Why not Amazon gift cards? Why not Bitcoin?

At what point do you stop calling it 'barter' and start calling it 'currency'?

 

[Into the Night]

America fell into depressions that were more brutal than the Great Depression with barter and currencies backed by gold. Europe had the dark ages, partly because of barter and currencies backed by gold. It was hardly an enlightened, or free time.

The Great Depression was not caused by any currency. None of the other depressions were caused by it either.
They were caused by just a few reasons:
* plagues
* theft on a massive scale
* war
* over speculation (gambling)
* weather

All of these cause a disruption of markets...the real cause of any depression or economic downturn.

The Great Depression, for example, involved theft on a massive scale. The economic downturn that preceded it (the so called Black Monday) was caused by over speculation.
The Dot Com crash was caused by over speculation.
The Real Estate crash was caused by over speculation.
The current depression is caused by theft on a massive scale (blaming a so-called plague for it).
One of the worst depressions to ever hit Europe was caused by weather (and later the Black Death, which killed half the population of Europe, because they had no treatment for it at the time).
The Franc crashed, causing an economic downturn in France, was due to war (the Napoleonic war).
The Mark crashed, causing an economic downturn in Germany, was due to war (and the disaster of the Treaty of Versailles).

The so-called Gold Crash, was actually just governments running out of money, since they wasted it on war. One by one they turned to fiat currencies, outlawing gold and silver, because they were broke. People accepted it because of the depression caused by war.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Not the banks. The Fed and the government. It is they that are trying to print themselves out of the situation they are in. It is they that is trying to use Keynesian economics to 'stimulate' the economy. It doesn't work.

Yes. The world did just fine with a currency that is not fiat. As far as 'tangibles' is concerned, what is 'tangible' about, say, gold as a currency? If people decide to use it as the prevailing currency, what is it that gives gold its value as a currency?

You say you want direct barter. Is gold not an item to barter for? Is it somehow barred from being something you can barter with?

If you can barter for gold, or use gold to barter with, why not dollars? Why not yen? Why not Amazon gift cards? Why not Bitcoin?

At what point do you stop calling it 'barter' and start calling it 'currency'?

when a party can manufacture it with no extra work it's fiat currency.

 

[Into the Night]

It wasn't from currency. It was from too much speculation on wallstreet

No. Too much speculation on main street, wall street, and every other street.

 

[Into the Night]

Walt is a big stereotypical swiss.

What is a 'stereotypical Swiss'? (Swiss is a proper noun...it is capitalized.)

 

[Into the Night]

The banks collapsed from deflation, not Wall Street speculation.

The crash of '29 was caused by over speculation (gambling) by people everywhere, not just guys on Wall Street.
The depression that followed was caused by theft on a massive scale. FDR stole the gold and silver from people and built Fort Knox to house the stolen gold. His continued interference in the economy (various fascism and communism programs) lengthened the depression throughout the rest of his term in office.

Today, some of those programs still exist and still cause problems, namely the Fed as the fiat currency agency (communism), the Social Programs such as social security and medicare and medicaid (communism), forcing banks to conform to arbitrary rules from the Fed and Congress (fascism), and, of course the cost of war.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

What is a 'stereotypical Swiss'? (Swiss is a proper noun...it is capitalized.)

chocolate drink cheese eatin illuminati well armed banker motherfucker

 

[Into the Night]

Sound currency did not cause the depression.

That's asinine.

Correct. NO currency caused any depression or downturn...ever.

 

[Into the Night]

Gold is not "sound". It is gold.

That, by itself, is 'sound'. Gold will always be gold.

It fluctuates wildly for its own reasons, which is very unsound for the economy.

Fluctuates against what? Now you are speaking of a relative term. You are comparing gold to something else. What is that 'something else'?

The solution to the deflation that caused the Great Depression was to get rid of the gold standard.

Gold did not cause the Great Depression. FDR did.

When gold goes deflationary, it becomes self reinforcing.

Deflationary to what? Again, you are speaking of a relative term here. What are you comparing gold to?

Another point I think you should consider: Is deflation necessarily a bad thing?

Computers, for example, used to be large bulky affairs that only the very rich could afford. Now they are cheap. So cheap that everyone can have one, and many have several of them. That's a price drop. A massive one. It was caused by a constructive deflation (through innovation).

Cars, for example, used to be rare and expensive. Through mass manufacturing, the car became so affordable that most anyone has one now. The price of the car has deflated...again through innovation.

Wheat used to be grown and harvested by hand, and milled by local mills. It was pretty expensive. The invention of the combine harvester made wheat so cheap they were practically giving bread away. Bread today is still cheap thanks to that machine and the huge mills that grind and process the grain now. So is flour. That's deflation...again through innovation.

If general deflation occurs, it's worth saving money. Cash is king. It's value is going up.

 

[Into the Night]

when a party can manufacture it with no extra work it's fiat currency.

Apparently you don't know what 'fiat' means either.

This is a Latin word, meaning, "Let it be done". It was typically part of a proclamation by a government. In other words, 'fiat' is simply a decree. It is nothing more. The amount of work has nothing to do with it.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Apparently you don't know what 'fiat' means either.

This is a Latin word, meaning, "Let it be done". It was typically part of a proclamation by a government. In other words, 'fiat' is simply a decree. It is nothing more. The amount of work has nothing to do with it.

yes.

so in money it means someone is simply dictating a value, without have to work for it.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Correct. NO currency caused any depression or downturn...ever.

but yet, inflation matters.

 

[Into the Night]

chocolate drink cheese eatin illuminati well armed banker motherfucker

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You really ARE lost!

Did you know that most of the chocolate consumed is by the the States and not Switzerland? Folks in the States tend to prefer milk chocolate as well. The Swiss (and Europe) tends to favor dark chocolate.
Chocolate drinks are most popular again in the States. Sure, the Swiss love chocolate. So what? Many people in Europe do. The Swiss are actually relative latecomers to making chocolate products.

Most cheese is consumed in the States as well. The largest producers are in Wisconsin and in Oregon.
Cheese is treated much like the way Europeans treat wine. The locally produced variety is the favorite. Wisconsin favors various cheddars. Oregon favors 'cottage' or raw cheese. Cream cheese is well known and associated with Pennsylvania. Muenster cheese is favored by Germany. Parma, Italy, is well known for the parmesan recipe. Rome is well known for the roma cheese recipe. The Swiss are of course known for the Swiss cheese recipe.

Big deal.

Worried about guns? There are more guns than citizens in the States. The States enjoy a relatively low murder rate despite this. Switzerland requires every able-bodied male to serve in the military, and to keep a weapon ready for use at any time. Switzerland also enjoys a relatively low murder rate.

Banks exist in every nation. Banks in Switzerland have a unique feature: numbered and passcoded accounts. Anyone with the account number and it's password can access that account, and Swiss keep banking information very private. Why do you consider this evil?

I doubt there are many in Switzerland that fuck their mothers.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You really ARE lost!

Did you know that most of the chocolate consumed is by the the States and not Switzerland? Folks in the States tend to prefer milk chocolate as well. The Swiss (and Europe) tends to favor dark chocolate.
Chocolate drinks are most popular again in the States. Sure, the Swiss love chocolate. So what? Many people in Europe do. The Swiss are actually relative latecomers to making chocolate products.

Most cheese is consumed in the States as well. The largest producers are in Wisconsin and in Oregon.
Cheese is treated much like the way Europeans treat wine. The locally produced variety is the favorite. Wisconsin favors various cheddars. Oregon favors 'cottage' or raw cheese. Cream cheese is well known and associated with Pennsylvania. Muenster cheese is favored by Germany. Parma, Italy, is well known for the parmesan recipe. Rome is well known for the roma cheese recipe. The Swiss are of course known for the Swiss cheese recipe.

Big deal.

Worried about guns? There are more guns than citizens in the States. The States enjoy a relatively low murder rate despite this. Switzerland requires every able-bodied male to serve in the military, and to keep a weapon ready for use at any time. Switzerland also enjoys a relatively low murder rate.

Banks exist in every nation. Banks in Switzerland have a unique feature: numbered and passcoded accounts. Anyone with the account number and it's password can access that account, and Swiss keep banking information very private. Why do you consider this evil?

I doubt there are many in Switzerland that fuck their mothers.

look at you furiously suck banker cock. hilarious

 

[Into the Night]

yes.

so in money it means someone is simply dictating a value, without have to work for it.

No. It is not possible to dictate a value.
Value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

A fiat currency is simply a currency that is designated by fiat (government decree).

In the United States, the Constitution specifies what is to be used for currency. This is not a government decree. It is simply an agreed upon bit of the Constitution.
The only legal tender, according to the Constitution, is gold and silver. The Fed and the fiat dollar is therefore unconstitutional.