I Agree With The Founders About Healthcare

[Old Trapper]

Mine was up 40% last year. Down currently 3% this year so that be like 37% in 2 years. If you "cannot afford" a 401K then you have a spending problem.

Yeah that is right. Could not be the rising cost of living, and the cheap wages the employer pays.

Tell you what asshole, why don't you tell that to the 45 million workers who are working 2, or 3, jobs and still do not earn enough to support their families? Tell that to the 2/3'sa of the workers who's employer does not even offer a 401K.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/economy/us-middle-class-basics-study/index.html

 

[Nordberg]

It's free to people who don't pay taxes, like welfare recipients and drug pushers.

poor people pay taxes. The percent of taxes paid by the poor is more that the wealthy. You hate the poor so much, that you want to make sure they don't get healthcare. But universal healthcare would actually save you money. You only care about yourself, so think how nice it would be to not have to worry about financial destrution from an acident or catastrophic illness?

 

[Phantasmal]

Yeah that is right. Could not be the rising cost of living, and the cheap wages the employer pays.

Tell you what asshole, why don't you tell that to the 45 million workers who are working 2, or 3, jobs and still do not earn enough to support their families? Tell that to the 2/3'sa of the workers who's employer does not even offer a 401K.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/economy/us-middle-class-basics-study/index.html

Thank you, it so ignorant to tell people to save when many of them are making a choice, food or medicine, food or electricity. It is totally ignoring how bad some hard working people have it. It callous.

 

[Old Trapper]

Thanks for the link friend, I'll be looking up the healthcare systems of those small countries to see how many of them are single payer countries and to also find out how much of their GDP they spend on their own national defense.

Speaking of national defense, we spend more then the top 8 spenders combined, and added more this year while the right wing sought to cut food stamps, etc. And this was after giving the wealthy a huge tax cut.

Now, why not look at how much of our GDP goes to the defense department, and then see if you can find the trillions they cannot account fr.o

 

[Adolf_Twitler]

Apparently a majority of the founders thought that the states and or the people were perfectly capable of handling the vast majority of their problems themselves without BIG brother government's incompetent and corrupt hand in their till. See sir, founders like Madison and Jefferson understood a very important fact of political life. "government is force by definition and corruption by nature." The Bigger the government the greater the force and corruption. You see sir that's exactly why they insisted on the Bill Of Rights and the 10'th amendment.

That sounds very gracious, and I appreciate your concerns and of the two political figures of past that you mentioned! As I respect their opinions of big government, I do not necessarily agree with yours or their opinions. Throughout our history, we have seen both good examples of Big Government, and we have seen bad examples of Big government. For me, it comes down to who is the leader of our big government, and who represents We The People and our government, and the stewardship I see from those leaders that bases my opinion on our government. Leaders come and they go, but our government is consistent, and our message to ourselves as Americans, and for the example others see in us around the world should remain consistent and non-wavering, nor different from state to state, or from president to president.

As one may say, "Government is a force by definition, and corrupt by nature" I will be the first to disagree that it is not the government that is Corrupt or forceful, for it is the leaders that can become forceful and corrupt, abuse their authority, and deceive us. And State leaders of State Governments can also be as corrupt and forceful in their nature of leadership as well, so NO they do not get to define what federal laws or programs they want to adhere to or rebel against.

For United we stand, and Divided we fall, and we are not divided by colors of red and blue, not divided by Democrat or Republican states, and we all cohere to a set of standards and rules that we all have to agree on to have the privilege and blessing to be a state within the United States. We cannot have rebel states! We cannot have political states, and we cannot have discourse or division among our states.

 

[Robo]

poor people pay taxes. The percent of taxes paid by the poor is more that the wealthy. You hate the poor so much, that you want to make sure they don't get healthcare. But universal healthcare would actually save you money. You only care about yourself, so think how nice it would be to not have to worry about financial destrution from an acident or catastrophic illness?

Actually people on welfare collect more economically from the government than they pay in taxes. I don't hate anybody, I'm not a democrat. Explain how universal healthcare will save me money, if you can. Actually I'm thinking about the system the founders set up for us. They never intended the federal government to operate a healthcare system or a pension system. If the majority of the people want that stuff today, they need to amend the Constitution to justify it. That's the constitutional process.

 

[Robo]

Speaking of national defense, we spend more then the top 8 spenders combined, and added more this year while the right wing sought to cut food stamps, etc. And this was after giving the wealthy a huge tax cut.

Now, why not look at how much of our GDP goes to the defense department, and then see if you can find the trillions they cannot account fr.o

I already know how much we spend on national defense. We protect the western world. That's why single payer countries can afford socialized medicine. America can't even afford our welfare system. Fed entitlements and our world defense system makes socialized medicine a total bankruptcy. If socialized medicine countries paid for their own national defense and their welfare systems, they'd all be bankrupted by now.

 

[Robo]

That sounds very gracious, and I appreciate your concerns and of the two political figures of past that you mentioned! As I respect their opinions of big government, I do not necessarily agree with yours or their opinions. Throughout our history,

Then you can explain how their opinions on the general welfare clause is flawed, right? I'll wait.

 

[Robo]

As one may say, "Government is a force by definition, and corrupt by nature" I will be the first to disagree that it is not the government that is Corrupt or forceful, /QUOTE]

Everything government does is by "force" of law, break government's law and face the consequences. Government without force isn't government, it's a joke. Government by nature is always corrupt. Power corrupts by nature and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

[Old Trapper]

Then you can explain how their opinions on the general welfare clause is flawed, right? I'll wait.

The greatest "flaw" in their argument, following your "logic", is that more are not dying following your wishes. Funny how it is that the left has abortion as population control, and the right has war, and starvation, as theirs.

 

[Old Trapper]

Actually people on welfare collect more economically from the government than they pay in taxes.

As do corporations, and the wealthy. But you don't whine about that. Then too, the wealthy did not whine when the tax rate was 93%. They just created more jobs, and more opportunities. Then came Reagan, and the whiners.

 

[Old Trapper]

Apparently a majority of the founders thought that the states and or the people were perfectly capable of handling the vast majority of their problems themselves without BIG brother government's incompetent and corrupt hand in their till. See sir, founders like Madison and Jefferson understood a very important fact of political life. "government is force by definition and corruption by nature." The Bigger the government the greater the force and corruption. You see sir that's exactly why they insisted on the Bill Of Rights and the 10'th amendment.

And both Jefferson, and Madison, opposed corporations, and income inequality. Of course, being the kind you are you would never speak of that.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickun...hat-corporations-are-people-too/#2b0ff9a87c4e

 

[Nordberg]

Social security has been around for over 85 years and has never missed a check. It is another well-run government program. We had old people starving and suffering when it was started. It was solving a horrible problem that we recognized as being cruel and needed to be stopped. We did it.

 

[Nordberg]

The general welfare clause has been used by the Supremes many times to justify helping the people. Too bad Robo is such a hateful person who takes pleasure in the pain and suffering of the weakest among us. The founders actually cared about the weakest and set it up so they could survive. The politicains, not most republicans though, have tried to make the poor and sick people's lives better.

 

[Robo]

The greatest "flaw" in their argument, following your "logic", is that more are not dying following your wishes. Funny how it is that the left has abortion as population control, and the right has war, and starvation, as theirs.

I see that response as pure jibberish friend. Explain in plain English how Madison and Jefferson were "flawed" in their assessment of the general welfare clause. Then in your own words tell us what rule of constitutional law the Congress can not override in the name of the general welfare according to your opinion of its power.

 

[Robo]

As do corporations, and the wealthy. But you don't whine about that. Then too, the wealthy did not whine when the tax rate was 93%. They just created more jobs, and more opportunities. Then came Reagan, and the whiners.

Actually, the corporate tax rate is assessed with consideration of worldwide rates to allow America's corporations a more lever playing field and allow them to actually headquarter and produce in America. Actually, the Trump corporate tax rate cut seems to have had that desired outcome. America's corporate tax rate was the highest in the world. Corporations don't actually pay taxes, they actually collect taxes from their customers. Producing anything in America was prohibitive because of it's cost of regulations and taxes that had to be passed on to the consumer. The Trump deregulation and tax cuts changed that situation, and no matter what the left tells us American corporations are coming back to America and producing here and creating JOBS here.











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[Robo]

And both Jefferson, and Madison, opposed corporations, and income inequality. Of course, being the kind you are you would never speak of that.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickun...hat-corporations-are-people-too/#2b0ff9a87c4e

I also oppose much of what corporations do. I'm not defending corporations, I'm simply providing facts, constitutional realities and the constitutional solution to America's healthcare woes.

 

[Robo]

Social security has been around for over 85 years and has never missed a check. It is another well-run government program. We had old people starving and suffering when it was started. It was solving a horrible problem that we recognized as being cruel and needed to be stopped. We did it.

Except Social Security is well known to be unsustainable over the longer run, without higher taxation or cuts in returns or both. Most younger folks today don't believe it will be around when they retire. FDR never even tried to amend the Constitution to produce a constitutional plan. Every and any State could have constitutionally produced a socialist pension program for the citizens of their state that would have been closer to a people/politician responsibility for the people of the state. The original Social Security plan was presented and promised to be voluntary, never to be used as a government ID number and to be a separate fund untouchable by government for anything unrelated to a pension program for the people. The duopoly parties are both responsible for the corruption of those original promises. They've shown that they together can even corrupt an unconstitutional program.

Actually there is NO money in the Social Security unlocked box, there's nothing but I.O.U's from the other unconstitutional operations the government has spent the loot on, like an unconstitutional federal social and corporate welfare and a constitutional, but outrageously insane Military Industrial Complex and World Police Force.

 

[Robo]

The greatest "flaw" in their argument, following your "logic", is that more are not dying following your wishes. Funny how it is that the left has abortion as population control, and the right has war, and starvation, as theirs.

"Money cannot be applied to the general welfare, otherwise than by an application of it to some particular measure conducive to the general welfare." James Madison

"Time indeed changes manners and notions, and so far we must expect institutions to bend to them. But time produces also corruption of principles, and against this it is the duty of good citizens to be ever on the watch, and if the gangrene is to prevail at last, let the day be kept off as long as possible." Thomas Jefferson"

You should know that when Madison & Jefferson talked about the "general welfare," they were actually talking about those things that were enumerated and authorized in and by the Constitution as a "power" of the federal government, i.e. The United States government.

 

[Old Trapper]

Actually, the corporate tax rate is assessed with consideration of worldwide rates to allow America's corporations a more lever playing field and allow them to actually headquarter and produce in America. Actually, the Trump corporate tax rate cut seems to have had that desired outcome. America's corporate tax rate was the highest in the world. Corporations don't actually pay taxes, they actually collect taxes from their customers. Producing anything in America was prohibitive because of it's cost of regulations and taxes that had to be passed on to the consumer. The Trump deregulation and tax cuts changed that situation, and no matter what the left tells us American corporations are coming back to America and producing here and creating JOBS here.

I'm not even going to waste my time showing what a load of garbage this is since you would never accept the realities of the situation. You can ignore the reality of the jobs leaving the country all you want, matters not in the long run. The globalization of corporate America is a done deal, and he profits of those corporations will be used to build up other countries while our standard of living declines. Even the Trumps have moved nothing back to the States, and have expanded their presence in Asia. And while the US had one of the highest corporate tax rates on record, the EFFECTIVE tax rate was far lower then many others.

As to the welfare clause spoken of, I do not know where I brought up "flaws" in the disagreement of Jefferson, Madison, and Hamilton (Let us not forget Hamilton), and do not believe I did. My response concerning the debate was based on the reality of the matter which you will choose to ignore. To that extent you should have taken the time to read the article I posted in my sig where Jefferson actually supported the taxation of the wealthy to provide for the less fortunate. Madison had a view based on Christianity that allowed for government support of the poor. Hamilton believed in an unlimited (unrestricted) government function to fight poverty.

In any event, until you can actually present an argument that is unbiased, and shows some intellectual quality, I am not going to get any further involved in this discussion. Right wingers will always try to disparage the poor, and the working poor, in an attempt to keep them on the "reservation", and "enslaved" to the knees of the wealthy.