I am sending this to the Creation Science Museum

Sorry, dude, but that doesn't answer it. Cvilizations rise and fall as our own history proves but not even a few major impact events stopped life on Earth. It only slowed it down.

Where are the space aliens? There's absolutely zero evidence they exist. Why?

I did not say anything about life on earth.

I am speaking to the possibility of technological species.

The fact that life may arise on many planets does not guarantee it will evolve into an advanced, technological species. The construct that biological life does ultimately result in advanced technological species is not a logical syllogism.

I agree there is no evidence for life anywhere in the galaxy, let alone intelligent life. None, nada, zilch. That is why I identified my post as speculation
 
I did not say anything about life on earth.

I am speaking to the possibility of technological species.

The fact that life may arise on many planets does not guarantee it will evolve into an advanced, technological species. The construct that biological life does ultimately result in advanced technological species is not a logical syllogism.

I agree there is no evidence for life anywhere in the galaxy, let alone intelligent life. None, nada, zilch. That is why I identified my post as speculation

Me too. You're smart enough to know that only one life model is known to us. All others are 100% speculative. The fact amino acids and other building blocks for life have been found, but we can't even find life, past or present, in our own Solar System despite looking for decades. Sure, one day microbes might be found in Mars or growing in the oceans of Io or Europa. If so, then we'll have a second model of life.

That's not the point of Fermi's Paradox. As noted earlier, our solar system is less than half the age of our galaxy's oldest stars. Over 4.5 Billion years is a long, long time. Again, as noted before, where human beings likely to be in as little as 10,000 years much less 500,000 years or 9 times that much time.

There should be something. Some kind of signal, evidence. Dyson hypothesized to look for stars "winking out" due to Dyson spheres or just having their light diminished with a ring. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero evidence of life in the entire Universe except for our own.

This doesn't mean there isn't because no one knows, but I think there are other possibilities as to why we haven't found that evidence. A common (Star Trek) idea might be some sort of Prime Directive.

A less common idea is that advanced civilizations don't use tech. For all we know the highest form of life were the Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens killed them off. Ours is a very technological species. We've successfully killed off or subjugated all other human cultures and animal species with Tech. What if "Tech" is considered barbaric by advanced cultures? That they've developed another path which is why we can't find them?
 
Me too. You're smart enough to know that only one life model is known to us. All others are 100% speculative. The fact amino acids and other building blocks for life have been found, but we can't even find life, past or present, in our own Solar System despite looking for decades. Sure, one day microbes might be found in Mars or growing in the oceans of Io or Europa. If so, then we'll have a second model of life.

That's not the point of Fermi's Paradox. As noted earlier, our solar system is less than half the age of our galaxy's oldest stars. Over 4.5 Billion years is a long, long time. Again, as noted before, where human beings likely to be in as little as 10,000 years much less 500,000 years or 9 times that much time.

There should be something. Some kind of signal, evidence. Dyson hypothesized to look for stars "winking out" due to Dyson spheres or just having their light diminished with a ring. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero evidence of life in the entire Universe except for our own.

This doesn't mean there isn't because no one knows, but I think there are other possibilities as to why we haven't found that evidence. A common (Star Trek) idea might be some sort of Prime Directive.

A less common idea is that advanced civilizations don't use tech. For all we know the highest form of life were the Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens killed them off. Ours is a very technological species. We've successfully killed off or subjugated all other human cultures and animal species with Tech. What if "Tech" is considered barbaric by advanced cultures? That they've developed another path which is why we can't find them?

Our imagination is limited by our cognition and experience.

Voltaire speculated about advanced life on Jupiter who used sailing ships. His ability to imagine was limited by his experience.

SETI is spending a lot of money searching for signals in the radio wave frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum.

As you imply, there is no guarantee sentient life in the cosmos uses our technology, or even has the same understanding of physics that we do.
 
Our imagination is limited by our cognition and experience.

Voltaire speculated about advanced life on Jupiter who used sailing ships. His ability to imagine was limited by his experience.

SETI is spending a lot of money searching for signals in the radio wave frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum.

As you imply, there is no guarantee sentient life in the cosmos uses our technology, or even has the same understanding of physics that we do.

Imagination is good but they need to be tempered with facts, with reality. There's no way to know for certain if something doesn't exist. Only that we don't know if it doesn.

I was part of SETI's processing by downloading a program to process signals. Like thousands of other volunteers, it would run when the computer was idle.
 
Imagination is good but they need to be tempered with facts, with reality. There's no way to know for certain if something doesn't exist. Only that we don't know if it doesn.

I was part of SETI's processing by downloading a program to process signals. Like thousands of other volunteers, it would run when the computer was idle.
yes, absent confirming evidence we have to accept the null hypothesis.

Great science is a combination of great imagination and creativity combined with experimental or observational confirmation

The Galaxy is 100,000 light years in diameter, and I suspect that SETI radio telescopes are only sensitive enough to search stars in our immediate galactic neighborhood. A few hundred light years distant from us?

So I am far from ready to give up on the concept that remote sensing of the electromagnetic spectrum has exhausted the possibility of detecting sentient life.

A more focused strategy moving forward may be to train radio telescopes on star systems we have confirmed have exoplanets orbiting in the habitable zone.
 
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yes, absent confirming evidence we have to accept the null hypothesis.

Great science is a combination of great imagination and creativity combined with experimental or observational confirmation

The Galaxy is 100,000 light years in diameter, and I suspect that SETI radio telescopes are only sensitive enough to search stars in our immediate galactic neighborhood. A few hundred light years distant from us?

So I am far from ready to give up on the concept that remote sensing of the electromagnetic spectrum has exhausted the possibility of detecting sentient life.

A more focused strategy moving forward may be to train radio telescopes on star systems we have confirmed have exoplanets orbiting in the habitable zone.

It depends upon the sensitivity of the receiver. Our scientists detected the faint radioactive signature of the Big Bang. Detecting an intelligent signal from background noise should be no more difficult. Obviously there needs to be something to hear. :)

https://www.seti.org/

It makes sense to focus antennas on the denser parts of the sky.
 
It depends upon the sensitivity of the receiver. Our scientists detected the faint radioactive signature of the Big Bang. Detecting an intelligent signal from background noise should be no more difficult. Obviously there needs to be something to hear. :)

https://www.seti.org/

It makes sense to focus antennas on the denser parts of the sky.

The big bang was a cosmic event of incalculable power and energy.

Detecting artificial electromagnetic signals from a small planet against the sea of cosmic background electromagnetic energy strikes me as akin to the proverbial needle in a haystack.
 
The big bang was a cosmic event of incalculable power and energy.

Detecting artificial signals from a small planet from the sea of cosmic background electromagnetic energy strikes me as akin to the proverbial needle in a haystack.

It's a challenge. Still, not impossible. Fermi's Paradox is still a paradox.
 
It's a challenge. Still, not impossible. Fermi's Paradox is still a paradox.

I agree that Fermi articulates a real challenge to the premise that sentient life exists in the galaxy outside earth.

On the flipside, these researches claim that the SETI search of the electromagnetic spectrum had barely scratched the surface. They estimate our Galactic search "completeness" is equivalent to having searched a bath tub volume of water out of all of the world's oceans.
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-3881/aae099

If true, it is safe to say we lack evidence and should be inclined to accept the null hypothesis. On the other hand, it is not correct to say we have conducted an extensive search for Galactic life, and have not found anything. In fact, we have barely searched the galaxy at all.
 
In my opinion the Drake Equation vastly over estimated the probability of widespread intelligent life in the Galaxy. For those of us who grew up on Star Trek, there was a basic assumption that advanced civilizations would be ubiquituous in the galaxy.

This was probably wishful thinking.

It took Earth 4.5 billion years to evolve us - smart chimpanzees - and we might only exist for a blink of an eye in terms of cosmic time - we could go extinct in a few centuries.

Moreover, we continue to learn that life only evolved on earth to to an remarkable series of cosmic, geologic, and astrophysical coincidences which I do not believe the proponents of the Drake equation really thought about in the 1960s.

While you are free to believe in your religion, making up numbers is a fallacy.
 
Lying about what I said diminishes your credibility.
You don't get to speak for everyone. You only get to speak for you. You are not God.
I specifically referenced Darwinian evolution to distinguish his theory of natural selection from earlier thinking on evolution by the Frenchman Lamarck and the ancient Greek Anaximander.
Lamarck didn't create the Theory of Evolution either. Neither did Darwin.
Now, below I posted back in September, about Lamarck's thinking on evolution -- unequivocally proving that I knew there were evolutionary hypotheses before Darwin.
A hypothesis is not a theory. A theory is not a hypothesis. Learn English.
Now, you seem like the type of person incapable of admitting you were wrong or to apologize for lying about someone, am I right??
I have nothing to apologize for, liar. You have put yourself in Paradox. You cannot argue both sides of a paradox. It is irrational.
 
Most of the probabilities in the Drake equation they just pulled out of their ass.

As we learn more about the galaxy, it seems large parts of the galaxy may be inhospitable for life as we know it. The habitable zone of the galaxy may only comprise a smallish disc well away from the dense galactic center.

The type of star matters.
The gravimetric planetary balance matters.
Atmospheric conditions matter.
Even if advanced civilizations developed in the galaxy, there is little guarantee there existence would overlap with ours in time. Species have a finite existence, on earth, the average species only generally exists for a million years or so. The universe is 13 billion years old.

There are so many factors that went into creating the conditions for life on earth, that I do not think the proponents of the Drake equation really thought about, let alone rigorously modeled them. The Drake equation was a rudimentary thought experiment

I think the Drake equation was published in the 1960s, and we have learned a lot more about the universe in the 50 years since.

This is not probability math. Math errors: failure to declare boundary. Failure to declare randX.
 
If I were to speculate, technological species may be out there, but they existed and flourished at a completely different time in cosmic history than the period we are living in.

13 billion years is a lot of time for thousands of technological species to arise and go extinct -- and given the nature of deep time, there is no reason to assume they had to co-exist at the same time in galatic history.

Define 'deep time'.
 
yes, absent confirming evidence we have to accept the null hypothesis.
Argument of ignorance fallacy.
Great science is a combination of great imagination and creativity combined with experimental or observational confirmation
Science does not 'confirm'. Science is not observations. All observations are subject to the problems of phenomenology. Science is not experiments. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. Nothing more. Nothing less.
The Galaxy is 100,000 light years in diameter, and I suspect that SETI radio telescopes are only sensitive enough to search stars in our immediate galactic neighborhood. A few hundred light years distant from us?
While the sensitivity of the receivers used in SETI vary, the big problem is that it can only listen through the small window of frequencies that penetrate the atmosphere, and that the sensitivity is likely not high enough. Electromagnetic weakens by the inverse square law. Since communications with satellites and spacecraft is typically so weak, it will be undetectable by any other planet orbiting another star. Cosmic noise is greater than such a signal. In other words, SETI would only be able to detect a signal powerful enough and beamed right at us. Something not even we can do.
So I am far from ready to give up on the concept that remote sensing of the electromagnetic spectrum has exhausted the possibility of detecting sentient life.
Quite sensible, but it IS highly unlikely.
A more focused strategy moving forward may be to train radio telescopes on star systems we have confirmed have exoplanets orbiting in the habitable zone.
We already do.
 
It depends upon the sensitivity of the receiver. Our scientists detected the faint radioactive signature of the Big Bang. Detecting an intelligent signal from background noise should be no more difficult. Obviously there needs to be something to hear. :)

https://www.seti.org/

It makes sense to focus antennas on the denser parts of the sky.

How does anyone know what the radio signature of the Big Bang looks like??
 
The big bang was a cosmic event of incalculable power and energy.

Detecting artificial electromagnetic signals from a small planet against the sea of cosmic background electromagnetic energy strikes me as akin to the proverbial needle in a haystack.

How do you know the Big Bang even happened?
 
I agree that Fermi articulates a real challenge to the premise that sentient life exists in the galaxy outside earth.

On the flipside, these researches claim that the SETI search of the electromagnetic spectrum had barely scratched the surface. They estimate our Galactic search "completeness" is equivalent to having searched a bath tub volume of water out of all of the world's oceans.
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-3881/aae099

If true, it is safe to say we lack evidence and should be inclined to accept the null hypothesis. On the other hand, it is not correct to say we have conducted an extensive search for Galactic life, and have not found anything. In fact, we have barely searched the galaxy at all.

Argument of ignorance fallacy.
 
I agree that Fermi articulates a real challenge to the premise that sentient life exists in the galaxy outside earth.

On the flipside, these researches claim that the SETI search of the electromagnetic spectrum had barely scratched the surface. They estimate our Galactic search "completeness" is equivalent to having searched a bath tub volume of water out of all of the world's oceans.
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-3881/aae099

If true, it is safe to say we lack evidence and should be inclined to accept the null hypothesis. On the other hand, it is not correct to say we have conducted an extensive search for Galactic life, and have not found anything. In fact, we have barely searched the galaxy at all.

The bathtub would have life in it. As would a glass of water dipped in the ocean even if it contained no fish. :)

The authors keep revisiting the haystack and body of water analogies. Their math is completely superior to anything I can understand but their logic seems to disregard the fact we're not searching the entire haystack or ocean, just the part around us. Nada. Zero. Zip.

It does touch a bit on tech. It wouldn't be the first time that we are looking for aliens using the tech equivalent of smoke signals while they are using something completely beyond our current ability to detect.

Mankind has used radio for less than 150 years. In another 100 it might be something completely undetectable to radio operators from 50 years ago.

Still, where are they? :)
 
Originally Posted by Cypress
Most of the probabilities in the Drake equation they just pulled out of their ass.
This is NOT probability math! Math errors: failure to declare boundary. Failure to declare randX.

"the Drake equation: a mathematical formula for the probability of finding life or advanced civilizations in the universe...The Drake equation is a list of probabilities which result in the estimate of the number of stars with planets harboring such civilizations."


> Source: NASA and Case Western University
https://exoplanets.nasa.gov/news/1350/are-we-alone-in-the-universe-revisiting-the-drake-equation/

"Into the Night": Wrong literally all the bloody time>>

Many, many, many examples of "Into The Night" being consistently ass-backwards wrong found here >>

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...stians-are-anti-science&p=3901887#post3901887
 
The bathtub would have life in it. As would a glass of water dipped in the ocean even if it contained no fish. :)

The authors keep revisiting the haystack and body of water analogies. Their math is completely superior to anything I can understand but their logic seems to disregard the fact we're not searching the entire haystack or ocean, just the part around us. Nada. Zero. Zip.

It does touch a bit on tech. It wouldn't be the first time that we are looking for aliens using the tech equivalent of smoke signals while they are using something completely beyond our current ability to detect.

Mankind has used radio for less than 150 years. In another 100 it might be something completely undetectable to radio operators from 50 years ago.

Still, where are they? :)

Honestly, I would be totally psyched if we could even just find evidence of non-sentient life.
 
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