I (gulp) agree with Alan West!

Those who want to harsly punish these young men had better remember this. When was the last time you volunteered for your country and had to fight people who are trying to kill you and risk your own lives to protect others? Keep an eye on the big picture here. These young men made a mistake for which they should be appropriately punished but lets not forget who they are and what they are doing for their country. To make a big political issue of this and and to press criminal charges against these young men would be a gross miscarriage of justice. This is not Abu Grahib here folks!

You want to talk about blow back? How many heros who would dedicate themselves to serving this country in a time of war will say "Fuck that" if they know they might become criminals because some stay at home safe civilian politician wants to play arm chair quarter back and ruin their lives. Again, this would be a gross miscarriage of justice.
 
ZappasGuitar said:
And the word you are looking for is "REFLEXIVE" not "reflective".

Anyone want to wager whether USF tries to claim "reflexive" and "reflective" are synonyms?

Or will he admit his mistake?
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He hasn't been back to the thread, what does that tell you. I don't expect an apology, I am just glad he was wrong and won't stalk me for two thousand posts.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Those who want to harsly punish these young men had better remember this. When was the last time you volunteered for your country and had to fight people who are trying to kill you and risk your own lives to protect others? Keep an eye on the big picture here. These young men made a mistake for which they should be appropriately punished but lets not forget who they are and what they are doing for their country. To make a big political issue of this and and to press criminal charges against these young men would be a gross miscarriage of justice. This is not Abu Grahib here folks!

You want to talk about blow back? How many heros who would dedicate themselves to serving this country in a time of war will say "Fuck that" if they know they might become criminals because some stay at home safe civilian politician wants to play arm chair quarter back and ruin their lives. Again, this would be a gross miscarriage of justice.
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Great post Mott, I as a veterans wife can not even begin to relate to what he went through. I see it, but I didn't live it.

I have a lot of respect for those who do what the rest of could never imagine.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Those who want to harsly punish these young men had better remember this. When was the last time you volunteered for your country and had to fight people who are trying to kill you and risk your own lives to protect others? Keep an eye on the big picture here. These young men made a mistake for which they should be appropriately punished but lets not forget who they are and what they are doing for their country. To make a big political issue of this and and to press criminal charges against these young men would be a gross miscarriage of justice. This is not Abu Grahib here folks!

You want to talk about blow back? How many heros who would dedicate themselves to serving this country in a time of war will say "Fuck that" if they know they might become criminals because some stay at home safe civilian politician wants to play arm chair quarter back and ruin their lives. Again, this would be a gross miscarriage of justice.
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So are trying to claim that potential soldiers, before signing up to defend this great nation, actually spend time contemplating whether they will be allowed to piss on the corpses of those they kill?

I think it's perfectly acceptable to say to anyone who wants to sign up: Hey, war is hell, but if you can't contol yourself and display at least the TINIEST bit of human decency, then maybe we don't need you...

Then aqain, maybe it can be used as a recruitment tool...I can see the posters lining the windows of recruitment offices across the country!


"Annoyed that simply killing the enemy isn't sending a strong enough message? Join the Army and piss on the corpses of those you kill! Rack up 100 kills and you can sexually molest their corpses before urination!"
 
Rana said:
He hasn't been back to the thread, what does that tell you. I don't expect an apology, I am just glad he was wrong and won't stalk me for two thousand posts.
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It tells me what you, I and several others already knew...he's just another cowardly little turd who demands accountability from others but disappears when anyone tries to hold him accountable.
 
So here is what's likely going to happen. The Marines in question will get article 15s (Non-Judicial Punishment). Thell get charged with disobeying lawful orders and Article 134, probably a couple others. It'll be battalion level so they'll lose 2 ranks, 60 days pay, have 60 days restriction (confinement outside of the brig), and be non recced for the rest of their careers. That means after their contract is up they won't be allowed to reenlist, so if they wanted a career that is no longer an option. They will get a Other Than Honorable discharge, which means they don't get any veterans benefits, especially with education. This mean when they are forced out they'll be in their mid to late 20s, without any sort of job skill or education. They won't be able to get a decent job, at least a few are likely to become homeless and/or drug addicts.

I've seen it happen for less.
 
Kel Tec RFB said:
So here is what's likely going to happen. The Marines in question will get article 15s (Non-Judicial Punishment). Thell get charged with disobeying lawful orders and Article 134, probably a couple others. It'll be battalion level so they'll lose 2 ranks, 60 days pay, have 60 days restriction (confinement outside of the brig), and be non recced for the rest of their careers. That means after their contract is up they won't be allowed to reenlist, so if they wanted a career that is no longer an option. They will get a Other Than Honorable discharge, which means they don't get any veterans benefits, especially with education. This mean when they are forced out they'll be in their mid to late 20s, without any sort of job skill or education. They won't be able to get a decent job, at least a few are likely to become homeless and/or drug addicts.

I've seen it happen for less.
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I think destroying the possibility of them having a career in the military is a little severe, but losing the rank and pay sounds fair.
 
ZappasGuitar said:
So are trying to claim that potential soldiers, before signing up to defend this great nation, actually spend time contemplating whether they will be allowed to piss on the corpses of those they kill?

I think it's perfectly acceptable to say to anyone who wants to sign up: Hey, war is hell, but if you can't contol yourself and display at least the TINIEST bit of human decency, then maybe we don't need you...

Then aqain, maybe it can be used as a recruitment tool...I can see the posters lining the windows of recruitment offices across the country!


"Annoyed that simply killing the enemy isn't sending a strong enough message? Join the Army and piss on the corpses of those you kill! Rack up 100 kills and you can sexually molest their corpses before urination!"
Click to expand...
Don't put words in my mouth. When was the last time you went in harms way to serve your country? Don't be a hypocrite. These were bad guys trying to kill these young men and who may damned well have killed or hurt their buddies. If you can't understand their feelings then you are in lala land if you want to make criminals out of these people. Where is the sense of proportionality here?
 
Kel Tec RFB said:
So here is what's likely going to happen. The Marines in question will get article 15s (Non-Judicial Punishment). Thell get charged with disobeying lawful orders and Article 134, probably a couple others. It'll be battalion level so they'll lose 2 ranks, 60 days pay, have 60 days restriction (confinement outside of the brig), and be non recced for the rest of their careers. That means after their contract is up they won't be allowed to reenlist, so if they wanted a career that is no longer an option. They will get a Other Than Honorable discharge, which means they don't get any veterans benefits, especially with education. This mean when they are forced out they'll be in their mid to late 20s, without any sort of job skill or education. They won't be able to get a decent job, at least a few are likely to become homeless and/or drug addicts.

I've seen it happen for less.
Click to expand...
And that would be a gross miscarriage of justice. After what these young men have done for their country. They deserve to be punished. They don't deserve to have their lifes ruined.
 
ZappasGuitar said:
I think destroying the possibility of them having a career in the military is a little severe, but losing the rank and pay sounds fair.
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However, it is extremely likely. The idea that they are just "getting away with it" or that somebody is trying to defend what they did is just "outrage" over the imaginary. The Marines in question will likely have a General letter added to their file, ending their careers and almost ensuring they will get an "other than honorable" discharge. What Billy described can and has happened in the past, over less.

They will be punished, severely. Adding the outpouring of "outrage" in the press will not help the situation at all and can add a perception that they "got away with it" that is based in fiction rather than reality. It isn't helpful and can actually mislead people who have been called "stone age" level ignorant masses here in this thread. Will they ever hear what has been done to these men because they stepped over that line?
 
Kel Tec RFB said:
That's what happens. Its the same as if they got a DUI, except a DUI you normally only lose 1 rank.
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If they do get busted down as severly as you predict it would be a very strong incentive for young people not to join. Join the Military. If the enemy doesn't kill you then arm chair QB's will get to ruin your life! All for pissing on a dead enemy soldier who was trying to kill you. Man, that's just political bullshit. I've talked with WWII vets and this is so tame compared to the shit they did to enemy soldiers.

I know guy who was a Marine in WWII and faught on Iwo. He told me a story about how they captured a Japanese sniper alive. Their Lt. gave them his service revolver and 4 of them took turns shooting him in the leg with the .45 before the Lt. shot him in the head. (they had a hard on for snipers).

Another WWII vet who fought in Germany told me how he and two other guys took about 20 teenage German POW's out into a field and executed them on orders cause they had to move forward and didnt' have the resources to secure prisoners. So they shot them instead. When I asked him if that didn't haunt him he said....a little but we couldn't very well leave live enemy soldiers in our rear now, could we?
 
Mott the Hoople said:
If they do get busted down as severly as you predict it would be a very strong incentive for young people not to join. Join the Military. If the enemy doesn't kill you then arm chair QB's will get to ruin your life! All for pissing on a dead enemy soldier who was trying to kill you. Man, that's just political bullshit. I've talked with WWII vets and this is so tame compared to the shit they did.
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That's what would happen if they DIDN'T put it on Youtube. Its the nature of getting in trouble in the Corps.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Those who want to harsly punish these young men had better remember this. When was the last time you volunteered for your country and had to fight people who are trying to kill you and risk your own lives to protect others? Keep an eye on the big picture here. These young men made a mistake for which they should be appropriately punished but lets not forget who they are and what they are doing for their country. To make a big political issue of this and and to press criminal charges against these young men would be a gross miscarriage of justice. This is not Abu Grahib here folks!

You want to talk about blow back? How many heros who would dedicate themselves to serving this country in a time of war will say "Fuck that" if they know they might become criminals because some stay at home safe civilian politician wants to play arm chair quarter back and ruin their lives. Again, this would be a gross miscarriage of justice.
Click to expand...

Killers are not heroes. That is the problem.


All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
Voltaire
 
Kel Tec RFB said:
That's what would happen if they DIDN'T put it on Youtube. Its the nature of getting in trouble in the Corps.
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I understand the need for discipline, particularly in a combat zone. I just think that one adrenoline induced error in judgement shouldn't negate the sacrifices that these young men have made. That's just not right.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I understand the need for discipline, particularly in a combat zone. I just think that one adrenoline induced error in judgement shouldn't negate the sacrifices that these young men have made. That's just not right.
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When I get home I'll tell ya'll a story from my unit in Iraq. It'll illustrate the mentality of the situation.

Suffice it to say, there's a reason why the Corps has a retention rate of about 15%.
 
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