If there was no Pearl Harbor

Superfreak said:
yes, because we declared war on Japan.

Please show us your evidence that we knew (prior to entering the war) what was going on in concentration camps.
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This is from the Holocaust Museum site. Guess we didn't know "officially" until after entering the war.

[h=2]5. When did the American press first report on the “Final Solution”? ↑[/h] The American press reported Nazi violence toward Jews as early as 1933, and by 1938, published reports of anti-Jewish measures such as the Nuremberg Laws, along with other incidents of antisemitic violence, had multiplied dramatically. In 1941, as the magnitude of anti-Jewish violence increased, newspapers began running descriptions of the Nazi mass murder of Jews, some even using the word "extermination" to refer to these large-scale killings. However, it wasn't until late 1942 that the American public received official confirmation of these reports. On November 24 of that year, Rabbi Stephen Wise disclosed in a press conference that the State Department had investigated and confirmed reports about the Nazis' extermination campaign against European Jews. A few weeks later, on December 17, the United States, Britain, and ten Allied governments released a formal declaration confirming and condemning Hitler's extermination policy toward the Jews. Despite the official status of these announcements, most major dailies in the United States minimized their importance by burying them on inner pages. The New York Times, for example, allocated space on the front page for only the latter of these official reports, relegating Wise's press conference to page ten.

http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/faq/details.php
 
christiefan915 said:
This is from the Holocaust Museum site. Guess we didn't know "officially" until after entering the war.

[h=2]5. When did the American press first report on the “Final Solution”? ↑[/h] The American press reported Nazi violence toward Jews as early as 1933, and by 1938, published reports of anti-Jewish measures such as the Nuremberg Laws, along with other incidents of antisemitic violence, had multiplied dramatically. In 1941, as the magnitude of anti-Jewish violence increased, newspapers began running descriptions of the Nazi mass murder of Jews, some even using the word "extermination" to refer to these large-scale killings. However, it wasn't until late 1942 that the American public received official confirmation of these reports. On November 24 of that year, Rabbi Stephen Wise disclosed in a press conference that the State Department had investigated and confirmed reports about the Nazis' extermination campaign against European Jews. A few weeks later, on December 17, the United States, Britain, and ten Allied governments released a formal declaration confirming and condemning Hitler's extermination policy toward the Jews. Despite the official status of these announcements, most major dailies in the United States minimized their importance by burying them on inner pages. The New York Times, for example, allocated space on the front page for only the latter of these official reports, relegating Wise's press conference to page ten.

http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/faq/details.php
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It amazes me that we didn't know more, sooner, such a terribe travesty.

US PRESS COVERAGE OF THE “FINAL SOLUTION”
*
During the era of the Holocaust, the American press did not always publicize reports of Nazi atrocities in full or with prominent placement. For example, the New York Times, the nation's leading newspaper, generally deemphasized the murder of the Jews in its news coverage. The US press had reported on Nazi violence against Jews in Germany as early as 1933. It covered extensively the Nuremberg Laws of 1935 and the expanded German antisemitic legislation of 1938 and 1939. The nationwide state-sponsored violence of November 9-10, 1938, known as Kristallnacht (Night of Crystal), made front page news in dailies across the US as did Hitler's infamous prediction, expressed to the Reichstag (German parliament) on January 30, 1939, that a new world war would mean the annihilation of the Jewish “race.”
As the magnitude of anti-Jewish violence increased in 1939-1941, many American newspapers ran descriptions of German shooting operations, first in Poland and later after the invasion of the Soviet Union. The ethnic identity of the victims was not always made clear. Some reports described German mass murder operations with the word "extermination." As early as July 2, 1942, the New York Times reported on the operations of the killing center in Chelmno, based on sources from the Polish underground. The article, however, appeared on page six of the newspaper. Although the New York Times covered the December 1942 statement of the Allies condemning the mass murder of European Jews on its front page, it placed coverage of the more specific information released by Wise on page ten, significantly minimizing its importance.
 
Kristalnacht was a considerable step forward from the slow legal persecutions that Jews suffered, though, and it happened right as the major events were about to transpire. I doubt anyone is the US could have anticipated what would happen in 1938 from what happened 1933-1937.
 
Threedee said:
Kristalnacht was a considerable step forward from the slow legal persecutions that Jews suffered, though, and it happened right as the major events were about to transpire. I doubt anyone is the US could have anticipated what would happen in 1938 from what happened 1933-1937.
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So, this terrible event happened and the United States government did not stay on top of it? Even though Hitler stated he would annihilate the Jews?

I guess we operated differently back then.
 
Rana said:
So, this terrible event happened and the United States government did not stay on top of it? Even though Hitler stated he would annihilate the Jews?

I guess we operated differently back then.
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weren't all the foreign intelligence agencies created AFTER WW2?.....
 
Yep:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Strategic_Services

The Office of Strategic Services (OSS) was a United States intelligence agency formed during World War II. It was the wartime intelligence agency, and it was a predecessor of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). The OSS was formed in order to coordinate espionage activities behind enemy lines for the branches of the United States Armed Forces.

Prior to the formation of the OSS, American intelligence had been conducted on an ad-hoc basis by the various departments of the executive branch, including the State, Treasury, Navy, and War Departments. It had no overall direction, coordination, or control. The US Army and US Navy had separate code-breaking departments: Signals Intelligence Service and OP-20-G. (A previous code-breaking operation of the State Department, MI-8, run by Herbert Yardley, had been shut down in 1929 by Secretary of State Henry Stimson, deeming it an inappropriate function for the diplomatic arm, because "gentlemen don't read each other's mail".[2]) The FBI was responsible for domestic security and anti-espionage operations.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt was concerned about American intelligence deficiencies. On the suggestion of William Stephenson, the senior British intelligence officer in the western hemisphere[note 1] Roosevelt requested that William J. Donovan draft a plan for an intelligence service based on the British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) and Special Operations Executive. Colonel Donovan was employed to evaluate the global military position in order to offer suggestions concerning American intelligence requirements because the U.S. did not have a central intelligence agency. After submitting his work, "Memorandum of Establishment of Service of Strategic Information," Colonel Donovan was appointed as the "Co-ordinator of Information" (COI) on 11 July 1941. Thereafter the organization was developed with the assistance of the British; Donovan had responsibilities but no actual powers and the existing US agencies were sceptical if not hostile. Until some months after Pearl Harbor, the bulk of OSS intelligence came from the UK. The first OSS agents were trained by British Security Coordination (BSC) in Canada, until training stations were set up in the US with guidance from BSC instructors, who also provided information on how the SOE was arranged and managed. The British immediately made available their short-wave broadcasting capabilities to Europe, Africa and the Far East and provided equipment for agents until American production was established.[3]

...
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Honestly, though, America was pretty anti-semetic at the time. We probably just assumed Hitler was just using rhetoric for the most part, because we didn't care all that much. We were ultimately so surprised and shocked by the Holocaust that our attitude toward problems facing Jews shifted after the war.
 
Threedee said:
Honestly, though, America was pretty anti-semetic at the time. We probably just assumed Hitler was just using rhetoric for the most part, because we didn't care all that much. We were ultimately so surprised and shocked by the Holocaust that our attitude toward problems facing Jews shifted after the war.
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Indeed, there was little done during the war, though the reports grew more and more consistent with what happened, especially after 1942.
 
Annie said:
Certainly, even during the Revolution.

Talking though about a system for gathering and analyzing, beyond specific instances, what Wiki called 'ad hoc.'
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The Navy was listening in on radio communications of foreign military and diplomats since 1923.
 
Threedee said:
Honestly, though, America was pretty anti-semetic at the time. We probably just assumed Hitler was just using rhetoric for the most part, because we didn't care all that much. We were ultimately so surprised and shocked by the Holocaust that our attitude toward problems facing Jews shifted after the war.
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I don't believe they did not know. The public was surprised, but the government knew. They were as guilty as the Catholic Church. Anti-Semitism may have played a role in our ignoring the situation. The fact that they were moving millions into concentration camps could not have gone unnoticed.
 
Rana said:
I don't believe they did not know. The public was surprised, but the government knew. They were as guilty as the Catholic Church. Anti-Semitism may have played a role in our ignoring the situation. The fact that they were moving millions into concentration camps could not have gone unnoticed.
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I agree, the government had to know, without question. They would be more guilty than the Catholic Church or any other Church, including the Lutherans, the Swiss Guards might be great body guards, but would lack a bit of something against German Tanks. The brave Polish army didn't fare well upon their horses.
 
/k/ said:
Do you know how many people would have to be killed? AT LEAST 2x as many as were killed on 9/11.

Now you might be able to say that we deliberately ignored/allowed 9/11 to happen, but to say we caused it...no.
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Walk with me for a moment .. If science is correct, there is no way possible that those buildings could have fallen in on themselves regardless of what the catalyst may have been .. but one. It is simply not possible. The events of 9/11 CANNOT be replicated in a lab .. which is why they used computer modeling.

That is just one area where science and the story of 9/11 collide.

But just for the sake of this discussion, imagine that science is right .. which shouldn't be too difficult. If science is correct, all three buildings which all exhibited the same destruction characteristics even though from different catalysts .. such as no plane it WTC7 .,. then the ONLY way those buildings could have done that was by controlled demolition .. which is exactly what it appeared to be.

If they were destroyed by CD .. NO TERRORISTS COULD HAVE DONE THAT. That would require access to buildings that housed departments of the Internal Revenue Service, Department of Defense, U.S. Secret Service, New York City Office of Emergency Management, Federal Bureau of Investigations, and the Central Intelligence Agency .. as well as a plethora of high-powered domestic and international banking institutions.

They would have needed access to the structure of the buildings without being noticed by security. Something I suggest is impossible to do. They would have needed that access, probably hidden by 'power outages' and/or construction .. such as this ..

"On the weekend of 9/8,9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approx 36 hrs from floor 50 up. I am aware of this situation since I work in IT and had to work with many others that weekend to ensure that all systems were cleanly shutdown beforehand ... and then brought back up afterwards. The reason given by the WTC for the power down was that cabling in the tower was being upgraded ...

"Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower. I was at home on the morning of 9/11 on the shore of Jersey City, right opposite the Towers, and watching events unfold I was convinced immediately that something was happening related to the weekend work."
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/11/interview-with-scott-forbes.html


The point of all this is if the buildings fell because of CD, who had the authority to ensure that planting the explosives would not be noticed? Terrorists certainly wouldn't have it.


Was it that the government allowed it to happen, or were they actively involved?

I'll let someone with far more gravitas than I to speak to that question ..

“I say that as an old interceptor pilot, I know the drill, I know what it takes, I know how long it takes, I know what the procedures are, I know what they were, and I know what they've changed them to - if our government had merely done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to happen on that morning of 9/11, the Twin Towers would still be standing and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive.“ -- Lt. Col., USAF, ret. Robert M. Bowman, Former Director of Advanced Space Programs Development (STAR WARS) in the Ford and Carter administrations.

Bowman flew 101 combat missions in Vietnam. He is the recipient of the Eisenhower Medal, the George F. Kennan Peace Prize, the President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace, the Society of Military Engineers Gold Medal (twice), six Air Medals, and dozens of other awards and honors. His Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech. He chaired 8 major international conferences, and is one of the country’s foremost experts on National Security.

Bowman was also the one who blew the whistle on the Star Wars program, revealing that it's intent was not defensive as the government was saying it was.

Dr. Bowman died six days ago from cancer.

I was blessed to have met him, interviewed him, and shook his hand. Bowman was a genius, a fighter, and a courageous common man.

Yes, the administration HAD to have participated in the events of 9/11.
 
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Rana said:
So, this terrible event happened and the United States government did not stay on top of it? Even though Hitler stated he would annihilate the Jews?

I guess we operated differently back then.
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Not really. Governments all over the world had nazi- sympathisers, such as the Pieirces, President Bush's ancestors.
 
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