If they don't have a gun... don't tell the cops they do...

Damocles

Damocles

Accedo!
Staff member
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/13/ny.shooting/index.html

Police shoot, kill man holding hairbrush, witnesses say

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Officers shot and killed an 18-year-old man who they believed to be armed, New York police said, but witnesses said Tuesday he was only holding a hairbrush.

The Monday night shooting followed a 911 call from the man's mother. Police described the situation as "a family dispute with a gun."

After officers arrived, the teen refused to halt as he approached police, prompting them to open fire, The Associated Press reported.

Police told The New York Times they believed the teen, Khiel Coppin, had a gun, but after five officers fired 20 shots they realized he was holding only a hairbrush.

"The boy didn't have no gun, he had a brush on him," said Andre Wildman, a neighbor who told CNN that he saw the shooting.

More at link...
 
I could be wrong, but I'll bet the kid was black. Or, a poor white.


Guaranteed the cops aren't letting loose with a hail of bullets in beverly hills or marin county.
 
This is truly a sad thing. People have to use a little sense when dealing with law enforcement. Hold hands high and show that I'm clearly not armed, especially if it was dark.

I was stopped by a game warden one time and he became very nervous when he discovered that I had 18 guns in the back of my Bronco. My friend had come in from England and we had been doing some target shooting. I made sure I didn't do anything to cause the officer more concern or stress until he checked everything out.

Now, all that said, It does seem to be over kill for five officers to use 20 shots on this kid. I'm sure there will be plenty of investigation.
 
This seems relevant:

The AP reported that the teen had a history of mental illness and his mother had tried to have him hospitalized earlier in the day.
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And I don't see any indication that the guy that was shot told the cops that he had a gun. It's hard to blame the cops, and I'm sure that once one of them started firing the others joined in, but given the history of NYPD use of excessive force on unarmed individuals you would think that there would be protocols in place to prevent this type of thing.
 
Dungheap said:
This seems relevant:



And I don't see any indication that the guy that was shot told the cops that he had a gun. It's hard to blame the cops, and I'm sure that once one of them started firing the others joined in, but given the history of NYPD use of excessive force on unarmed individuals you would think that there would be protocols in place to prevent this type of thing.
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Read the story. It says, during the 911 call the mother said he had a gun, and during the call they heard him in the background saying he was going to shoot her and had a gun.

At least read, "No indication" only shows that you didn't read the story, not that it wasn't there.
 
Damocles said:
Read the story. It says, during the 911 call the mother said he had a gun, and during the call they heard him in the background saying he was going to shoot her and had a gun.

At least read, "No indication" only shows that you didn't read the story, not that it wasn't there.
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Damocles, I'm tired of your silly shit. Re-read what I wrote. I said that he never told the cops that he had a gun. He didn't. The mother did and the 9-11 operator claims to have heard him say he had a gun. At best he told his mother he had a gun and the 9-11 operator maybe heard him (I'm not buying a single sourced claim that it was overheard, there are tapes of the call somewhere and someone can find out for sure).

So, he never told the cops that he had a gun. Get it? I read the story. It doesn't say what you claimed it said.
 
Dungheap said:
Damocles, I'm tired of your silly shit. Re-read what I wrote. I said that he never told the cops that he had a gun. He didn't. The mother did and the 9-11 operator claims to have heard him say he had a gun. At best he told his mother he had a gun and the 9-11 operator maybe heard him (I'm not buying a single sourced claim that it was overheard, there are tapes of the call somewhere and someone can find out for sure).

So, he never told the cops that he had a gun. Get it? I read the story. It doesn't say what you claimed it said.
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So, you don't think dispatchers actually tell cops over the radio that the caller, in this case his mother, says that he has a gun? You have to be the most foolhardy person I have ever had the opportunity to "read".

No matter which way you try to play this, those cops were told that the kid was armed. And they were told it because the call was that it was a family dispute involving a gun.

Amazingly, the story said what I said it did.

Don't be so deliberately obtuse.
 
Damocles said:
So, you don't think dispatchers actually tell cops over the radio that the caller, in this case his mother, says that he has a gun? You have to be the most foolhardy person I have ever had the opportunity to "read".

No matter which way you try to play this, those cops were told that the kid was armed. And they were told it because the call was that it was a family dispute involving a gun.

Amazingly, the story said what I said it did.

Don't be so deliberately obtuse.
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I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I'm being rational. A person telling the cops "I have a gun" and someone else claiming a person has a gun are two vastly different scenarios and should be treated very differently. Apparently, you believe that at the very mention of "gun" police should take the policy of shoot first and ask questions later.

Furthermore, I'm not buying the police sources saying that they overheard the guy claiming to have a gun on the 9-11 call without corroboration from the taping of the call itself.

Finally, what I wrote is 100% accurate:

And I don't see any indication that the guy that was shot told the cops that he had a gun.
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As I said previously, it's hard to blame the cops here but there should be protocols to prevent this type of thing from happening.
 
You said, "The story doesn't say what you claimed it said..."

BS it doesn't. The original call says that the mother said he had a gun. If you don't want them coming in with guns ready and jumpy, don't tell them he has a gun.

I can't imagine him coming out with a hair brush after such a call was made...

Now, according to the witness the guy dropped the brush and put up his hands and they shot him anyway.

My point wasn't that the cops were "right", it was the fact that if the kid isn't armed don't tell the cops he is and you have a FAR better chance of a better ending.
 
Cypress said:
I could be wrong, but I'll bet the kid was black. Or, a poor white.


Guaranteed the cops aren't letting loose with a hail of bullets in beverly hills or marin county.
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I would bet that the number of cops that get shot at in Beverly Hills or Marin County is a lot lower than the number of cops that get shot at by minorities in NYC.
 
Sounds like the kid was trying to be a punk and tell the cops off by strutting is way toward their cruisers. My guess is the cops didn't wait to find out what was in his hands. Shoot now, ask questions later is the motto.
 
gonzojournals said:
I would bet that the number of cops that get shot at in Beverly Hills or Marin County is a lot lower than the number of cops that get shot at by minorities in NYC.
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I would also guess that the number of kids in Beverly Hills or Marin County that would actually stop when a cop says so is probably higher than minorities or poor whites in NYC.
 
You know, in California, there are so many people in jail, for life, due to the three strikes law, for nothing other than posessessing a handgun.
 
But I bet the number of BLACKS killed in Beverly Hills or Marin for holding Brushes or taking their wallet out is lower too. And remember Amadou Diallou was not doing ANYTHING wrong when he was shot by NYPD.
 
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I read this story earlier today. I recall that it said he was holding what turned out to be the hairbrush under his shirt while approaching the police. If you're a police officer under these circumstances (he claimed to have a gun, even if he didn't tell the police directly, and behaved as if he were holding a weapon) would you wait for him to actually fire and kill you or one of your fellow officers before opening fire?
 
Thorn said:
I read this story earlier today. I recall that it said he was holding what turned out to be the hairbrush under his shirt while approaching the police. If you're a police officer under these circumstances (he claimed to have a gun, even if he didn't tell the police directly, and behaved as if he were holding a weapon) would you wait for him to actually fire and kill you or one of your fellow officers before opening fire?
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The police said that. Witnesses said otherwise. Bottom line is that a guy got shot 20 times for carrying a hairbrush. We'll have to wait for more information before it can be determined what actually happened.

Nevertheless, as I said before, there should be protocols in place designed to prevent this type of thing from happening.
 
Dungheap said:
The police said that. Witnesses said otherwise. Bottom line is that a guy got shot 20 times for carrying a hairbrush. We'll have to wait for more information before it can be determined what actually happened.

Nevertheless, as I said before, there should be protocols in place designed to prevent this type of thing from happening.
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A 911 call says there is a gun invovled. Police arrive and the guy does not stop but walks towards them with what turns out to be a brush but what cops believe are a gun. What protocols would put in place in this situation?

It seems a whole lot easier to critique afterwards when we are not the one in the line of fire having to make a life and death decision.
 
cawacko said:
A 911 call says there is a gun invovled. Police arrive and the guy does not stop but walks towards them with what turns out to be a brush but what cops believe are a gun. What protocols would put in place in this situation?

It seems a whole lot easier to critique afterwards when we are not the one in the line of fire having to make a life and death decision.
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I didn't critique anyone. In fact, I said it is hard to place any blame on the cops here. However, merely accepting as fact that someone has a gun and shooting the person assumed to have a gun if he any motion that could be interpreted by a cop under high stress and facing a potentially deadly force strikes me as bad policy. I'm not a cop and I don't know what protocols should be put in place, but I'm sure there are plenty of experts in the field that do.
 
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