Isn't a Coronavirus Stimulus check a form of Socialism?

Dachshynddawg said:
Socialism is primarily an economic ideology. Those who promote it argue that a centralised state should own all of a nation's means of production. That means, in turn, they are proposing (1) that the state alone should plan and monitor the functioning of the entire economy and (2) that individual ownership of private property is effectively prohibited. When private property is forbidden, the inevitable result is that the freedom of the individual withers and dies; and this is unacceptable because individual liberty (the "Right of Conscience") is the paramount moral value. Thus socialism is an evil ideology. Full Stop.

Dachshund
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the communist manifesto actually promotes central banks to plan the economy, like we have now.
 
Tacomaman said:
Of course it is. That was just a rhetorical question for our hypocritical former Republican (now tRumplican) friends here on JPP.

Remember when Obama did it, and how it was a horrible idea? Now that tRump wants to do one, its GREAT!......lol

Honestly, the blatant hipocrisy of the trumpanzees is both hilarious and scary at the same time.

For the record, I supported Obama's and I will support this one to.
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Once the checks have been sent out, wait for the Reichtards to start screeching about how they didn't get theirs yet. I wonder why now, anyways? With businesses shuttered, the only spending ops are online or grocery stores.

TRE45ON will do anything to buy votes. If he sets himself on fire on Fifth Avenue, he'll get mine. :laugh:
 
StoneByStone said:
$300 is nothing. Don't get me wrong, Obama's plan wasn't terrible, but it didn't do much for the working-class.
We should really have monthly UBI and free healthcare.
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As a percentage of income $300 was higher for the working class than rich people. But no, the government isn't going to send out $20K checks to every person if that's what you're hoping for.
 
cawacko said:
As a percentage of income $300 was higher for the working class than rich people. But no, the government isn't going to send out $20K checks to every person if that's what you're hoping for.
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$20k would be too much. It should be a thousand a month, like Andrew Yang wants, plus Medicare for All. Will it ever happen? I don't know. Just saying that it should.
Yes, it was higher for the working-class, but that just shows how extreme wealth inequality is in America.
 
StoneByStone said:
$20k would be too much. It should be a thousand a month, like Andrew Yang wants, plus Medicare for All. Will it ever happen? I don't know. Just saying that it should.
Yes, it was higher for the working-class, but that just shows how extreme wealth inequality is in America.
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UBI is different than a one time stimulus check. We weren't talking about UBI or Medicare for All. We were talking about stimulus checks.
 
cawacko said:
UBI is different than a one time stimulus check. We weren't talking about UBI or Medicare for All. We were talking about stimulus checks.
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Well in that case, a one time $20k check would be alright, but not enough to really fix the problem of extreme inequality.
 
Dachshynddawg said:
No, bird-brain, it's not socialism.

In 1929, the American Stock Market crashed and triggered the Great Depression.

All across the United States countless people suffered. Unemployment rose to 25%, 5,000 banks failed, people lost their homes and had to live in "Hoovervilles" rough-hewn (shanty towns). Things were VERY for grim for a very long time, Tacomanam; it would not be until America entered WW- 2 and cranked up a massive war economy (making munitions, planes, tanks, guns, etc, etc that the Great Depression in the US was effectively beaten, and the economy returned to some semblance of normality.

In 1933 Franklin Delano Roosevelt was elected President of the US. The depression , of course, was his most pressing issue. He decided to deal with it by using a a number of massive stimulus programs collectively known as "The New Deal."

He was, of course, excoriated by many powerful individuals and interest groups as a socialist and/or a communist. Though FDR always denied the charge, and made it perfectly clear that he was NOT a socialist/communist. Today, leftist Politician's like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC), the House Democrat who is a "Democratic Socialist", borrow the term "New Deal" from FDR to give their policies some respectability. AOC, for instance, called her radical package of climate change policies the "Green New Deal" (When asked by a news journalist about FDR and his "New Deal", she did not really know anything about the famous former President,( which is par for the course because AOC is basically a stupid bitch). Bernie Sanders, a hard-line "socialist" also refers to his current policy on the environment the "New Dea.l"

The use of the term "New Deal" by socialists like AOC and Bernie Sanders in 2020, is tacit confirmation of the fact that they understand FDR to have been a socialist POTUS in the 1930. But as I said FDR was NOT an ideological socialist.

His "New Deal" stimulus package was intended to kick-start the "dead" capitalist economy in America during the Great Depression. And to cut a long story short FDR's strategy was successful in reviving capitalism/economic growth in the US.


FDR's "New DeaL' was not socialism "on the march" in 30's - era America. It was:

1. A response to an urgent and desperate, unforeseen and unprecedented national crisis.

2. Always intended as a TEMPORARY measure. FDR's economic stimulus was applied as a means of trying to restore the pre-depression financial status quo. Once a healthy capitalist economy was up and "running under its own stream", the "New Deal" stimulus would have served its purpose and no longer be required.

A financial stimulus package, similar in principle to FDR's "New Deal" was used by the Australian government soon after the Global Financial Crisis was triggered by the meltdown of the multi-trillion dollar, US OTC Derivatives Market in mid- September 2008. Here again. we have an "unexpected" financial catastrophe that came "out of the blue" (BTW, I DO realise that many expert US economists were jumping up and down trying to warn the American government that an impending financial disaster was very likely if the government did not act quickly to put the regulatory "brakes" on the runaway OTC Derivatives Market) The OTC Derivatives Market melted down on 14th of September, 2008 when Lehman Brothers filed for what would be the largest corporate bankruptcy in American history. This set off a Derivatives chain- reaction, and within literally 24 hours all lending activity and the flow of credit in Europe was frozen solid. Soon, the entire world was hit by sharp contractions in economic activity and severe deflation.In many ways, the GFC (2008) was just like the Great Depression of the 1930's. Getting back to the point I wanted to make; in Australia prompt action by the then government in the form of a substantial stimulus package worked very well and as a result, Australia managed to escape almost all of the economic fall-out from the GFC, and came out pretty much unscathed.(Of course, Australia is a very small nation in terms of population, I realise that the fall-out from the GFC was far more difficult to minimise in America with its much larger population).


Using an economic stimulus in response to the GFC, did not mean that the Australian government of the day were socialists.


Donald Trump's decision to use an economic stimulus package to help revivify a US market that is growing sluggish as a consequence of the toll that the COVID19 virus is taking on the US economy does not mean that Trump is a socialist.
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Yes, "mindless minion" it is........) Now, the fact that you choose not to accept it is another issue altogether.
 
Dachshynddawg said:
Attaching an ideological label like "socialism" to a pragmatic proposal such as President Trump's plan to use a fiscal stimulus program to help protect the US economy during the current COVID19 pandemic is foolish and[B ] misleading.[/B]


When FDR passed his "New Deal" programs of fiscal stimulus during the Great Depression in the US during the 1930's, he was often attacked by his political enemies for being a "socialist" or even a "communist". These accusations greatly angered FDR and he vehemently denied being a socialist on many occasions. (during speeches to the public, for instance).


In times of high unemployment and severe (or potentially severe) economic crisis such, for example, as: the crash of the US Stock Market in 1929 and the ensuing "Great Depression" of the 1930's ; the sudden total meltdown of the American, OTC Derivatives Market in mid-September of 2008 that triggered the disastrous "Global Financial Crisis" (GFC) or the current COVID19 pandemic, which is predicted to cause a sharp contraction of the economy and severe deflation in the US, it is natural for a US President to use a fiscal stimulus program. Trump's idea to use a a fiscal stimulus package in the context of the economic implications of COVID19 in America, has nothing to do with ideological socialism; rather the idea is to BANDAGE a wounded capitalist economy in order to help it recover to full health as quickly as possible.


Statist economic intervention in the case of genuine, ideological socialism equates to having a centralised government that owns the entire means of production in a country. A socialist government therefore wholly controls the it's country's economy. Because it commands the economy, a socialist government (which is typically ruled by a small elite of central planners and above them, a dictator or autocrat of some kind) forcibly obtrudes itself upon every domain of every individual citizen's life. Thus each one of them is rendered a slave who has no true, individual freedom.


In summary, with respect to the OP, in which we are told Trump is a socialist (that almost made me laugh, BTW, but I quickly realised the comment was forged in the feverish depths of a sick mind) because he has used the economic strategy of a fiscal stimulus program to protect the US economy from the damage it might sustain due to the COVID19 pandemic ( mass business closures, unemployment, deflation, etc; that is bullshit.


FDR and TRUMP are not socialists. they are AMERICAN CONSERVATIVES. As FDR wrote....


"The true Conservative seeks to protect the system of private property and free enterprise (i.e; free-market capitalism) by correcting such injustices and inequalities as arise from it. The most serious threat to our (American) institutions comes from those who refuse to to face the need for change."





Dachshund
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And it is STILL a form of Socialism.......)
 
countryboy said:
Another liberal who has no idea what he supports. No, government checks are not a form of socialism, oh ignorant wonder of the universe.
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I know that racists are not very bright, but for the 20th. time, I am not a Liberal. I just despise tRump and the idiots who blindly and mindlessly follow him. And yes, that means you. ... )
 
StoneByStone said:
$300 is nothing. Don't get me wrong, Obama's plan wasn't terrible, but it didn't do much for the working-class.
We should really have monthly UBI and free healthcare.
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There were aspects that did help working class folks. In fact, we were able to hire about 5 thousand craft people and employed them for well over two years.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Once the checks have been sent out, wait for the Reichtards to start screeching about how they didn't get theirs yet. I wonder why now, anyways? With businesses shuttered, the only spending ops are online or grocery stores.

TRE45ON will do anything to buy votes. If he sets himself on fire on Fifth Avenue, he'll get mine. :laugh:
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One of the biggest jokes on The Hill during the ARRA was how people like Paul Ryan who opposed the ARRA, bitched when his state didn't get as much as he privately wanted.....)

There is a reason why career Civil Service folks call Republicans hipocrits.
 
Tacomaman said:
I know that racists are not very bright, but for the 20th. time, I am not a Liberal. I just despise tRump and the idiots who blindly and mindlessly follow him. And yes, that means you. ... )
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So Countryturd thinks that "government checks are not a form of socialism"? Funny then how the Reichtards whine and screech about "welfare" and poor ppl getting "government handouts" and how that's socialism.
 
Tacomaman said:
I know that racists are not very bright, but for the 20th. time, I am not a Liberal. I just despise tRump and the idiots who blindly and mindlessly follow him. And yes, that means you. ... )
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You are calling me a racist? Based on what? I am one of those brown people libs like you pretend to care so much about.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
So Countryturd thinks that "government checks are not a form of socialism"? Funny then how the Reichtards whine and screech about "welfare" and poor ppl getting "government handouts" and how that's socialism.
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I have seen very few Trump boot lickers blustering about rugged individualism and hollering at the government to stay out of the way.

It is almost as if - miraculously - they overnight converted into proponents of liberal economics and Keynesian government stimulus.
 
Cypress said:
I have seen very few Trump boot lickers blustering about rugged individualism and hollering at the government to stay out of the way.

It is almost as if - miraculously - they overnight converted into proponents of liberal economics and Keynesian government stimulus.
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Maybe they are finally realizing that they, too, are mortal -- and that the disgusting incompetent IMPOTUS they put in our WH is making the situation far worse.
 
Cypress said:
I have seen very few Trump boot lickers blustering about rugged individualism and hollering at the government to stay out of the way.

It is almost as if - miraculously - they overnight converted into proponents of liberal economics and Keynesian government stimulus.
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Then you should really pay closer attention. Government aid in a representative republic is not socialism. I'm not surprised Owl the sock machine doesn't know that. But you? You people need to reread your Communist Manifestos, because you seem to have forgotten what Marx and Engels wrote.
 
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