It happens more in rural areas...

Well I'm not a leftist and I think those people have a point. We can talk all we want about Britain, France or Japan's past. Its the past.

What is happening in America?

This is today a country that attacks sovereign nations without adequate provocation.

This is today a country that executes prisoners on a massive scale un parralled with any other western nation

This is a country that until recently was in the company of nations like Iran as one of the few nations and the only liberal democracy to execute children.

Face it this is a kill kill kill society we live in. If you don't see that and think taking a gun out of someones hands will change things you are blind.
 
IHateGovernment said:
Well I'm not a leftist and I think those people have a point. We can talk all we want about Britain, France or Japan's past. Its the past.

What is happening in America?

This is today a country that attacks sovereign nations without adequate provocation.

This is today a country that executes prisoners on a massive scale un parralled with any other western nation

This is a country that until recently was in the company of nations like Iran as one of the few nations and the only liberal democracy to execute children.

Face it this is a kill kill kill society we live in. If you don't see that and think taking a gun out of someones hands will change things you are blind.
Click to expand...

It's simply false to assert that the united states embodies some kind of unique level of human barbarism.
 
IHateGovernment said:
Well I'm not a leftist and I think those people have a point. We can talk all we want about Britain, France or Japan's past. Its the past.

What is happening in America?

This is today a country that attacks sovereign nations without adequate provocation.

This is today a country that executes prisoners on a massive scale un parralled with any other western nation

This is a country that until recently was in the company of nations like Iran as one of the few nations and the only liberal democracy to execute children.

Face it this is a kill kill kill society we live in. If you don't see that and think taking a gun out of someones hands will change things you are blind.
Click to expand...

You have a point on the death penality, I will say that. However, historically, empires were built on attacking other states and confiscating their land. If you want to say that it's in our blood as Americans, then it's in everyone's blood. Slavery too was certainly, in no way, unique to America. This is what people do when they have the power to do it. This is how nations act, when they have the unchecked power to act. It's sad, but true. I have had so many people from other countries (this is on message boards) spout a bunch of bs at me about how America does all of this harm in the world and other countries don't, and America didn't go into Rhwanda blah blah blah. Which country did go into Rhwanda? Which country today is in Darfur to stop the genocide? Nobody gives a crap, and no nation acts unless it is in its own interests to do so. I don't buy that America or Americans are any more violent or evil than anyone else. And you will this prove out, as America continues its inevitable decline (all empires end), and another superpower arises.

What do you imagine this world would look like were China the sole, unchecked superpower? Because you may well find out, and I don't know about you, but I'm not expecting any Utopia.
 
Darla said:
usc, to be clear, this rant is not directed at you at all. I have seen and been involved with this discussion, and I have a problem with fellow leftists, (and I do not consider you a leftist btw) who actually support this nonsense. I could go on for days about this, trust me.
Click to expand...

Oh I don't take it personal at all. I would rather we had no guns at all, but I will not be the first to trash mine. Nor am I one of those who say you will have to pry it out of my dead hands.
And yes I realilze other cultures are violent, but that does not diminish our violent nature nor excuse our violent nature one bit.

but one truth is that many many guns are out there and if the law abiding ones give up their guns only the criminals will have them is very true....
A certain Quandry....
We certanily do not have enought police to patrol everywhere either....
Nor do I want a policeman on every corner....
Quandry, quandry....
 
Darla said:
You have a point on the death penality, I will say that. However, historically, empires were built on attacking other states and confiscating their land. If you want to say that it's in our blood as Americans, then it's in everyone's blood. Slavery too was certainly, in no way, unique to America. This is what people do when they have the power to do it. This is how nations act, when they have the unchecked power to act. It's sad, but true. I have had so many people from other countries (this is on message boards) spout a bunch of bs at me about how America does all of this harm in the world and other countries don't, and America didn't go into Rhwanda blah blah blah. Which country did go into Rhwanda? Which country today is in Darfur to stop the genocide? Nobody gives a crap, and no nation acts unless it is in its own interests to do so. I don't buy that America or Americans are any more violent or evil than anyone else. And you will this prove out, as America continues its inevitable decline (all empires end), and another superpower arises.

What do you imagine this world would look like were China the sole, unchecked superpower? Because you may well find out, and I don't know about you, but I'm not expecting any Utopia.
Click to expand...


LOL, I don't believe Utopia will ever include humans....
 
You have a point on the death penality, I will say that. However, historically, empires were built on attacking other states and confiscating their land. If you want to say that it's in our blood as Americans, then it's in everyone's blood. Slavery too was certainly, in no way, unique to America. This is what people do when they have the power to do it. This is how nations act, when they have the unchecked power to act. It's sad, but true. I have had so many people from other countries (this is on message boards) spout a bunch of bs at me about how America does all of this harm in the world and other countries don't, and America didn't go into Rhwanda blah blah blah. Which country did go into Rhwanda? Which country today is in Darfur to stop the genocide? Nobody gives a crap, and no nation acts unless it is in its own interests to do so. I don't buy that America or Americans are any more violent or evil than anyone else. And you will this prove out, as America continues its inevitable decline (all empires end), and another superpower arises.

Of course America acts poorly because it is the world's superpower. Thats the point power corrupts. In any other country gained this power it would be just as bad. But it happens to be the US. The fact that the US is often in the 'only' category with so many things that the rest of the world considers barbaric should be noticed and considered.

What do you imagine this world would look like were China the sole, unchecked superpower? Because you may well find out, and I don't know about you, but I'm not expecting any Utopia.

I expect no better and in fact far worse from China but that hardly excuses anything.
 
IHateGovernment said:
You have a point on the death penality, I will say that. However, historically, empires were built on attacking other states and confiscating their land. If you want to say that it's in our blood as Americans, then it's in everyone's blood. Slavery too was certainly, in no way, unique to America. This is what people do when they have the power to do it. This is how nations act, when they have the unchecked power to act. It's sad, but true. I have had so many people from other countries (this is on message boards) spout a bunch of bs at me about how America does all of this harm in the world and other countries don't, and America didn't go into Rhwanda blah blah blah. Which country did go into Rhwanda? Which country today is in Darfur to stop the genocide? Nobody gives a crap, and no nation acts unless it is in its own interests to do so. I don't buy that America or Americans are any more violent or evil than anyone else. And you will this prove out, as America continues its inevitable decline (all empires end), and another superpower arises.

Of course America acts poorly because it is the world's superpower. Thats the point power corrupts. In any other country gained this power it would be just as bad. But it happens to be the US. The fact that the US is often in the 'only' category with so many things that the rest of the world considers barbaric should be noticed and considered.

What do you imagine this world would look like were China the sole, unchecked superpower? Because you may well find out, and I don't know about you, but I'm not expecting any Utopia.

I expect no better and in fact far worse from China but that hardly excuses anything.
Click to expand...

So then we agree.
 
yeah sort of like picking on wally world. all retailers do what they do or wish they could. Wally world is just the biggest.
People are just inherently bad....and if unrestrained....
 
uscitizen said:
yeah sort of like picking on wally world. all retailers do what they do or wish they could. Wally world is just the biggest.
People are just inherently bad....and if unrestrained....
Click to expand...

I don't know if people are inherently bad. I resist that. I don't know if they are inherently good. I'm not sure they are inherently anything. I do see evidence that one on one, they tend to be kinder than in groups, packs, or factions. And I do believe that no truer words have ever been spoken, or written, then the words "absolute power corrupts absolutely".
 
IHateGovernment said:
Well I'm not a leftist and I think those people have a point. We can talk all we want about Britain, France or Japan's past. Its the past.

What is happening in America?

This is today a country that attacks sovereign nations without adequate provocation.

This is today a country that executes prisoners on a massive scale un parralled with any other western nation

This is a country that until recently was in the company of nations like Iran as one of the few nations and the only liberal democracy to execute children.

Face it this is a kill kill kill society we live in. If you don't see that and think taking a gun out of someones hands will change things you are blind.
Click to expand...


You're conflating the american government's foreign policy, with the american people.

In terms of our nation's democratic participation - particulary our rate of voting - We are almost alone, among democracies in the developed world. Maybe 30-40% of our people vote. Even in a presidnetional election it's rarely higher than 50% participation. Other developed democracies have 80-90% of their populations participating in representative democracy.

What I'm saying is, all the war and action of the united states recently, that you cited, reflected the core values of - maybe 25% of registered voters. And when you include non-registered adult, that number is even lower than 25%.


If we ever had 90% of adult americans voting, I guarantee you we wouldn't have such a war like foreign policy.
 
You're conflating the american government's foreign policy, with the american people.

The actions of our government definitley have an affect on prevailing opinions of our populace.

In terms of our nation's democratic participation - particulary our rate of voting - We are almost alone, among democracies in the developed world. Maybe 30-40% of our people vote. Even in a presidnetional election it's rarely higher than 50% participation. Other developed democracies have 80-90% of their populations participating in representative democracy.

Numbers I have seen do not appear to support what you are saying to the degree you are implying but I will research this and find figures.


What I'm saying is, all the war and action of the united states recently, that you cited, reflected the core values of - maybe 25% of registered voters. And when you include non-registered adult, that number is even lower than 25%.


If we ever had 90% of adult americans voting, I guarantee you we wouldn't have such a war like foreign policy.

Cypress it doesn't have to be most people. Even if it is 25% thats a lot more still than in other countries. Its entrance into public policy isn't done with support below 10%.

Not everybody is a psycho mass murderer but if enough people are of the mindset to come to become one we have a big problem and we do.
 
IHateGovernment said:
You're conflating the american government's foreign policy, with the american people.

The actions of our government definitley have an affect on prevailing opinions of our populace.

In terms of our nation's democratic participation - particulary our rate of voting - We are almost alone, among democracies in the developed world. Maybe 30-40% of our people vote. Even in a presidnetional election it's rarely higher than 50% participation. Other developed democracies have 80-90% of their populations participating in representative democracy.

Numbers I have seen do not appear to support what you are saying to the degree you are implying but I will research this and find figures.


What I'm saying is, all the war and action of the united states recently, that you cited, reflected the core values of - maybe 25% of registered voters. And when you include non-registered adult, that number is even lower than 25%.


If we ever had 90% of adult americans voting, I guarantee you we wouldn't have such a war like foreign policy.

Cypress it doesn't have to be most people. Even if it is 25% thats a lot more still than in other countries. Its entrance into public policy isn't done with support below 10%.

Not everybody is a psycho mass murderer but if enough people are of the mindset to come to become one we have a big problem and we do.
Click to expand...


The government's foreign policy most certainly does not represent the core values of most americans. I would say less than 25% of american are real Warhawks like Dixie or Toby. People who want to just bomb anything and everything in sight. Now, it's true the the goverment can lie to the people, or stir up fear and paranoia, and get a temporary 60% approval rating for invading iraq. But, that number is based on smoke and mirrors. Lies, to be more specific in the case of iraq. The core values of most ameircans do not lie in a war like foreign policy.

Empirical evidence supports me. In poll, after poll, americans overwhelmingly support multilateralism, international institutions like the UN, and using diplomacy over force. Just think if ALL these americans were actually voting?
 
Cypress said:
You're conflating the american government's foreign policy, with the american people.

In terms of our nation's democratic participation - particulary our rate of voting - We are almost alone, among democracies in the developed world. Maybe 30-40% of our people vote. Even in a presidnetional election it's rarely higher than 50% participation. Other developed democracies have 80-90% of their populations participating in representative democracy.

What I'm saying is, all the war and action of the united states recently, that you cited, reflected the core values of - maybe 25% of registered voters. And when you include non-registered adult, that number is even lower than 25%.


If we ever had 90% of adult americans voting, I guarantee you we wouldn't have such a war like foreign policy.
Click to expand...

But the apathy or inaction of the non-voting portion portion of our population enables the ones that lead us in the wrong direction, so they share in the blame. So by enabling evil they are evil in a way as well ?
 
uscitizen said:
But the apathy or inaction of the non-voting portion portion of our population enables the ones that lead us in the wrong direction, so they share in the blame. So by enabling evil they are evil in a way as well ?
Click to expand...


I can't argue against the fact that apathy, is fundamentally an enabling behaviour.

Of course, we know why warhawks want to make voting as hard as possible in this country. They set up as many roadblocks to voting as the can possibly get away with. And they engage in vote suppresion.

Because you and I know, that if 90% of american adults ever really did vote? We woulnd't be acting like a militaristic empire, and we wouldn't have a military industrial corporate complex controlling our foreign policy.
 
uscitizen said:
According to the polls 25% are still pretty much supporting all of Bush's evil actions.....
Click to expand...



the authoritarian rightwing in most countries are always going to account for 20% of the population, or so. Spain had a rightwing Prime Minister a few years ago. Look at that Howard dude in Australia. There are flagrantly racist and neo-nazi parties in germany, that win parliamentary seats. But, the authoritarian right is kept in its place, because up to 89 or 90% of citizens vote in most developed democracies.
 
The government's foreign policy most certainly does not represent the core values of most americans. I would say less than 25% of american are real Warhawks like Dixie or Toby. People who want to just bomb anything and everything in sight. Now, it's true the the goverment can lie to the people, or stir up fear and paranoia, and get a temporary 60% approval rating for invading iraq. But, that number is based on smoke and mirrors. Lies, to be more specific in the case of iraq. The core values of most ameircans do not lie in a war like foreign policy.

Empirical evidence supports me. In poll, after poll, americans overwhelmingly support multilateralism, international institutions like the UN, and using diplomacy over force. Just think if ALL these americans were actually voting?

As I said it doesn't have to be a majority it only has to be enough. The fact that even a significant bloc of voters support such things is disturbing.

Also let us not forget. The US is not a homogenous nation but a cobbled patchwork of regional cultures. If these kinds of attitudes are prevalent in one area they poison the wells of others.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top