It happens more in rural areas...

You're compelled to buy auto insurance. You're compelled to pay taxes. You're compelled to do a lot of things.

I don't agree with being compelled to buy insurance. Tax wise everyone needs to pay taxes but I prefer consumption based taxes tied to related services so that people don't mooch.


that's the price of admission, into a prosperous, democratic society. Do your duty as a citizen. For those who want to tune out, and live the Ted Kazinski lifestye, there are plenty of remote islands in the south pacific.

I'm not about the "America love it or leave it" mentality. Everyone has a right to be here non-voting or not.

As for not trusting the American people I know you are ribbing me on this one as it makes me sound bad. But let me bring out some figures about why I feel this way.

As you may know, the Bush administration has been wiretapping telephone conversations between U.S. citizens living in the United States and suspected terrorists living in other countries without getting a court order allowing it to do so. Do you think the Bush administration was right or wrong in wiretapping these conversations without obtaining a court order?

55% right 42% wrong

Are you in favor of the death penalty for a person convicted of murder?

67% For 28% Against

Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings -- [ROTATE 1-3/3-1: 1) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, 2) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process, 3) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so]?

36% God Guided 13% God played no part 46% God created man in present form within the last 10000 years

Do you think marriages between homosexuals should or should not be recognized by the law as valid, with the same rights as traditional marriages?

39% For 58% against

Do you think the use of marijuana should be made legal, or not?

36% Yes 60% No

I feel pretty justified in my lack of confidence in the American public.
 
This is really an amazing admission IHG.

You don't trust most americans to vote, because they are too stupid.

but, you do trust americans, of any educational level, to sit on juries where decisons involving life or death are commonly decided.

By your logic, shouldn't we have a rule where you have to have a college degree to serve on a jury? Or an IQ test? I mean, juries make real decisions that can decide life or death of a person. In many ways, that's more important than deciding on a congressional rep or a city council member.


I'm interested to know how is it you trust americans of all walks of life and educational levels, to decide matters of life and death - yet, you don't trust many ameircans to elect a city council member?

Please elaborate ;)
 
So you do not believe in democracy IHG ?

What kind of democracy. I support representative democracy not Direct/Athenian democracy. I am also a staunch opponent of ballot propositions.
 
You don't trust most americans to vote, because they are too stupid.

Thats right. The founders would agree with me. They feared the masses. Most colonists didn't support the revolution either. Too many are exactly like the ones in your Iacocca article.

but, you do trust americans, of any educational level, to sit on juries where decisons involving life or death are commonly decided.

Its a problem but what choice do we have. Voting doesn't take more than 15 minutes in most instances. Jury duty is for a whole day at best.

By your logic, shouldn't we have a rule where you have to have a college degree to serve on a jury? Or an IQ test? I mean, juries make real decisions that can decide life or death of a person. In many ways, that's more important than deciding on a congressional rep or a city council member.

My logic doesn't lead to that conclusion. I have actually seen that suggested and in some cases I think that argument is valid although I don't agree.

I'm interested to know how is it you trust americans of all walks of life and educational levels, to decide matters of life and death - yet, you don't trust many ameircans to elect a city council member?

Its a necessary evil Cypress. And look lets not get rediculous. I merely said that anyone so uninvested in politics to not vote I do not crave their participation. I'm not about to suggest literacy tests or the like for voters.

Beside a jury is supposed to bring about justice we cannot have justice with elites deciding. Voting is not about justice however it is about preference. Some people's taste is in their ass.
 
But jury duty is compulsory. It's the price of being a citizen. I don't see why voting (cavet: as defined above) can't be the same way.

What are you worried about? You trust citizens from all walks of life and backgrounds, to decide if a guy is going to die, or be sent to jail for live.

Why can't you trust them to select a congressional representative? That's a far less consequential decision, that doesn't involve life or death.
 
But jury duty is compulsory. It's the price of being a citizen. I don't see why voting (cavet: as defined above) can't be the same way.

Because if people will not serve on juries then we cannot have justice and our constitutional right to a jury of our peers. It doesn't work even at a reduced rate of participation and also endangers the just nature of juries.

Voting doesn't work the same way. If a reduced number of people vote because in neither case it would ever be 0 we can still determine the will of the voters.

What are you worried about? You trust citizens from all walks of life and backgrounds, to decide if a guy is going to die, or be sent to jail for live.


Who says I trust people to be jurors? I don't but I see it as the best method. Compulsory jury duty provides a better result than voluntary jury duty. On the other hand voluntary voting produces a better result than compulsory voting.

Have you ever served on a jury Cypress. I reported for jury duty but was eliminated because of pre-trial intervention because of the things I said although I was not purposefully trying to get out of it I knew well that if either the prosecutor or the defense asked me anything I would be recused.

Why can't you trust them to select a congressional representative? That's a far less consequential decision, that doesn't involve life or death.

I trust them enough to allow them that choice. I do not crave their input so much because I do not trust them that I would advocate forcing them to go to the polls. For me forcing anyone to do anything better be for an extremely important reason. Getting someone who doesn't care about politics to randomly select a congressional candidate doesn't meat that requirement.
 
Wow I'm such an idiot a juror isn't recused. I forget the term actually. I'm not at my best today that prose above is terrible you'd think I was intoxicated.
 
IHG, you make my argument for me.

You correctly point out, that without mandatory jury service, the legal system starts to break down.

The same happens with a democracy. When voter participation is low, the democractic system of self government breaks down. When only 30% of people are voting, who's interests do you think are being represented? Special interests, and monied interests, primarily that's who. The whole election is skewed towards special interest groups, instead of the public will.
 
The same happens with a democracy.

No it doesn't people are still making voting decisions. Our democracy is not breaking down as you put it. Democracy is a responsibility to ourselves. If no one votes anymore than we must not care and deserve what we get. On the other hand if no one serves on a jury a persons liberty is imperiled because than their fate is solely in the hands of a judge.

Failure to vote harms you. Failure to serve on a jury hurts someone else.

When only 30% of people are voting, who's interests do you think are being represented?

People who care. I have no sympathy for those who can't be troubled to go vote. I vote in every election even in the odd years. Some positions I don't even know what they are but I'm sure to vote anyway.

The whole election is skewed towards special interest groups, instead of the public will.

If there was some behemoth legal mechanism standing in the way I would be sympathetic but since all that is required is people voting I guess by not voting this is what the public really wants. Its the will of the people.

I also support the rights of those of a minority opinion. I'm sure that those who choose not to vote would not vote for being made to do so. That opinion matters and we have no right to override it. It is their personal choice not to vote.
 
IHateGovernment said:
The same argument could be used for the draft as well.
Click to expand...

Yep.

And Thomas Jefferson was open to the idea, of universal compulsory participation in citizen militias.

Frankly I'd rather have that, than a professional standing mercenary army. You know, the Swiss model, where all citizens are required to be part of the national defense.
 
Cypress said:
Yep.

And Thomas Jefferson was open to the idea, of universal compulsory participation in citizen militias.

Frankly I'd rather have that, than a professional standing mercenary army. You know, the Swiss model, where all citizens are required to be part of the national defense.
Click to expand...
I'm sure that would make it tougher to get us into undeclared wars. It works for the Swiss, though not for the Israelis. Still, Israel has existed for only a single generation, really: it's an immature society and not a good counterexample.
 
Isreal is not a good example, their nation since they left Egypt has been based conquest and origionally on extermination of the people occupying "the prosmied land" after they left Egypt. They are bascially a warrior society.
 
Cypress said:
the authoritarian rightwing in most countries are always going to account for 20% of the population, or so. Spain had a rightwing Prime Minister a few years ago. Look at that Howard dude in Australia. There are flagrantly racist and neo-nazi parties in germany, that win parliamentary seats. But, the authoritarian right is kept in its place, because up to 89 or 90% of citizens vote in most developed democracies.
Click to expand...

Going back the the contention that america is inherently more savage, and prone to rightwing authoritarian foreign policy that other countries......

Just wanted to point something out. I contended that our abominally low voter turnout and registration (compared to other developed democracies) give the authoritarian over representation in our federal government and our foreign policy. I made an educated guess that the authoritarian right in this country, is actually supported by something significantly less than 25% of american adults. ALL american adults.

Subsequently, it was suggested to me that even 20 or 25% rightwingers, was still far more than in other countries - i.e., allegedly, the authoritarian right in other democracies has far less support than in the U.S.

I give you France, as an example supporting my contention. They literally have almost the same proportion of the population, supporting authoritarian righwing polcies:

Jean-Marie Le Pen is a a far right french politician who has run for president and garnered astonishing support. He runs on a far rightwing platform of anti-muslim, anti-immigrant, pro-death penalty, compulsory military service, and incentives for "homemakers" (read: making women stay home)

NY York Times says 15-20% of the French electorate sympathize with Le Penn, and Le Penn got over 17% of the vote in the last presidential election;\

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1680255.ece
Click to expand...

Those number of french authoritarians rightists from above, compare favorably to my educated guess of the number of americans who truly support the authoritarian right policies here.


In short, I'm not buying that americans are inherently more violent, or inherently have more rightwing authoritarians than other countries. However, as I stated previously, the power of the authoritarian right is diluted in other democracies, that have huge voter turnouts. Much, much higher than ours.
 
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Sounds about right, we are led by the most outspoken/violent right wingers....
My argument for mandatory voting. Well I am half convinced we should have it.
 
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