Leaving Iraq, Honorably

LadyT said:
I guess I'm just more concerned about practicality than the ideology of "winning a war on terror" that Bush effin' started.
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I'm concerned that, unlike Vietnam, there are people in Iraq that would bring this to the US. They have already shown a proclivity for that. If we leave before adjusting for security we will leave ourselves open. Focusing on the border and ports will alleve some of that, but if we leave unwisely we will set ourselves up for more danger.

I was against going in, and gave several statements of "We should do this, then leave" long ago. If we are not smart on when we take our leave, and we have missed several times when we could have, then we can simply leave ourselves hanging... *sigh*

Fricking Nation Building idiocy!...
 
Damocles said:
I'm concerned that, unlike Vietnam, there are people in Iraq that would bring this to the US. They have already shown a proclivity for that. If we leave before adjusting for security we will leave ourselves open. Focusing on the border and ports will alleve some of that, but if we leave unwisely we will set ourselves up for more danger.

I was against going in, and gave several statements of "We should do this, then leave" long ago. If we are not smart on when we take our leave, and we have missed several times when we could have, then we can simply leave ourselves hanging... *sigh*

Fricking Nation Building idiocy!...
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We really are stuck between a rock and a hard place. But I think those who show a proclivity to bring the war to US soil can and will attempt to do so even though we are in Iraq. I can't buy the theory that if we are fighting them in the ME, that will somehow keep them from being over here.
 
LadyT said:
We really are stuck between a rock and a hard place. But I think those who show a proclivity to bring the war to US soil can and will attempt to do so even though we are in Iraq. I can't buy the theory that if we are fighting them in the ME, that will somehow keep them from being over here.
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I think it will keep less of them from being here. And if we exit smartly it will give them less of a recruiting message than it would if we leave in clear retreat.
 
I wish I knew what to do about Iraq. I knew we should not have gone to Iraq.... Much like Bush's father knew!

I think we owe it to them to not leave in full retreat... I say get the UN to come in and provide a 30 year peace keeping roll!
 
uscitizen said:
So we should just sluff it off to the UN when we made the mess ?
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No. We need help and that is one of the reasons for the NU to help in situations like this.

I dont think we can do it alone, I never did. If the world community is occupying Iraq, instead of the United States... well it would help.
 
Jarod said:
I wish I knew what to do about Iraq. I knew we should not have gone to Iraq.... Much like Bush's father knew!

I think we owe it to them to not leave in full retreat... I say get the UN to come in and provide a 30 year peace keeping roll!
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If we were actually helping the situation, I'd agree. Our presence is an incentive for recruitment. We are not helping the situation.
 
Yep the longer we stay the more recruits we create and that increases the chance they will also make it to the USA and do something bad.
 
uscitizen said:
Yep the longer we stay the more recruits we create and that increases the chance they will also make it to the USA and do something bad.
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However if we leave in clear retreat that too will bring more recruits. It is important to leave smartly. Get out of areas with the violence and leave them to Iraqis, as they gain less violence leave even more areas... Simply force them to take control of their own nation or fail on their own merits.

It must be done in such a way as to appear planned, truly planned, rather than simply a dump and run otherwise we simply exacerbate our problems.
 
Actually we go completely radical:
As bad as he was, we could put saddam back in power. We kept him in check and he kepted everywhere else in the region in check.
 
Damocles said:
However if we leave in clear retreat that too will bring more recruits.
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I am not sure that is anything other than anecdotal demagoguery...

If we clearly state that we are leaving to allow muslims to find solutions to problems dealing with muslims.... that we stayed on after deposing Saddam because we thought we might accomplish something positive but clearly see that such is not possible....how would such a departure bring more recruits?
 
maineman said:
I am not sure that is anything other than anecdotal demagoguery...
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Right. Which is why we should deal with the here and now: our presence is not stopping the violence, its only escalated with US occupation.

Lets cut our losses:

Pull out of Iraq Now.
 
Leaving will create more recruits for the islamists than staying. They will just look at America as weak and claim a great victory and the foolish populations will agree and sign up by the thousands. Honor has nothing to do with it. That region only recognizes strong decisive measures.

Leaving would allow iran control of the region which would leave the gulf vulnerable. They could close off shipping very easily. Leaving would also allow iran to begin operations in syria jordan and saudi arabia, which is where they would concentrate first. And if they have or get the nuke they will have real leverage against the surrounding countries.

withdrawl is not an option here.
 
maineman said:
I am not sure that is anything other than anecdotal demagoguery...

If we clearly state that we are leaving to allow muslims to find solutions to problems dealing with muslims.... that we stayed on after deposing Saddam because we thought we might accomplish something positive but clearly see that such is not possible....how would such a departure bring more recruits?
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They'll show that "victory" has been had. People like to hang with "winners"... Pretending that such a stance wouldn't help them recruit is ignoring an issue that we can actually do something about. Leaving clearly in retreat will help them, more than staying a short time to find a smarter window and show that we are there to "help" when necessary at the same time. True I wish we had taken earlier chances. Such as never planning to stay and choose a government for them... But now we have to step carefully or we will simply create a worse problem.
 
Yep leaving Nam was the wrong thing to do as well. Guess that was why Bush was wearing the funny jammies over there ;)
 
uscitizen said:
Yep leaving Nam was the wrong thing to do as well. Guess that was why Bush was wearing the funny jammies over there ;)
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Like I said, this situation is different because of the clear element of attacks on US soil that were never prevalent with Vietnam. Pretending that they are exactly the same is again ignoring the large differences between the two. In some ways they are similar, but in important ways they are clearly different.
 
Gaffer said:
Leaving will create more recruits for the islamists than staying. They will just look at America as weak and claim a great victory and the foolish populations will agree and sign up by the thousands. Honor has nothing to do with it. That region only recognizes strong decisive measures.

Leaving would allow iran control of the region which would leave the gulf vulnerable. They could close off shipping very easily. Leaving would also allow iran to begin operations in syria jordan and saudi arabia, which is where they would concentrate first. And if they have or get the nuke they will have real leverage against the surrounding countries.

withdrawl is not an option here.
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why would they look at us as weak if we admitted that we had come to the conclusion that our presence was doing more harm than good? And when was the last time you spent any time in "that region"?
 
Damocles said:
They'll show that "victory" has been had. People like to hang with "winners"... Pretending that such a stance wouldn't help them recruit is ignoring an issue that we can actually do something about. Leaving clearly in retreat will help them, more than staying a short time to find a smarter window and show that we are there to "help" when necessary at the same time. True I wish we had taken earlier chances. Such as never planning to stay and choose a government for them... But now we have to step carefully or we will simply create a worse problem.
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But will it bring more recruits than having the armies of the Great Satan right there, in the flesh, occupying the nation second only to Saudi Arabia in significance to Muslims? I sincerely doubt it. Also, being able to claim "victory" -- and they will make that claim no matter when and how we leave -- will produce a single spike of recruitment. Our continuing presence produces a protracted wave.

As I've said before, I'm no longer convinced we're doing anything constructive by staying. This includes preventing new terrorist recruits from joining up.
 
maineman said:
why would they look at us as weak if we admitted that we had come to the conclusion that our presence was doing more harm than good? And when was the last time you spent any time in "that region"?
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why wouludnt they ?
 
Damocles said:
They'll show that "victory" has been had. People like to hang with "winners"... Pretending that such a stance wouldn't help them recruit is ignoring an issue that we can actually do something about. Leaving clearly in retreat will help them, more than staying a short time to find a smarter window and show that we are there to "help" when necessary at the same time. True I wish we had taken earlier chances. Such as never planning to stay and choose a government for them... But now we have to step carefully or we will simply create a worse problem.
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I am not pretending anything. I say that you lack anything other than anecdotal demagoguery to substantiate your claim that our reasoned departure would create more recruits. And if we clearly state that our mission was to depose Saddam and disarm him, and that we stayed a while longer in hopes of assisting the new government but now realize that our presence is causing more harm than good and we want to let muslims solve the problems between muslims.... you got NOTHING to show that such a reasoned departure would do anyhing like you claim it undoubtedly would.
 
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