Liberal Canadian Politician Goes to US for Healthcare

[Bonestorm]

Small comfort to those who are dead waiting. Who gives a shit if it's not as centrally run with all data known by one party. The reality is that with competition, if the waiting list is too long, you have choice; with socialized systems you don't.

Really your post illustrates why it is so wrong to entrust bureaucrat minded people with something as important as healthcare because they are more interested in paperwork than action.

First, I was merely pointing out that a comparison of US waiting times to the waiting times in other countries ought to take into consideration that they systemically track waiting times in countries with universal healthcare but we don't. It doesn't matter who does the tracking. What matters is that there, they actually track the data, whereas here we don't.

Second, your statement about "competition" fails to take into consideration the reality of health insurance. Most people with insurance can't just go to any old doctor any old time they want to. Competition largely doesn't exist. Moreover, it presumes that the customer (the "patient") has at his or her disposal all sorts of information that most healthcare consumers (patients) simply do not have and oftentimes cannot have without specialized knowledge.

Finally, you would do well to read up about comparative administrative costs in the US system versus "socialized systems" before spouting off BS nonsense about bureaucratic paperwork.

You post illustrates the wisdom behind the old saying that empty barrels make the most noise. Your are completely clueless on the issue but have plenty to say.

 

[Onceler]

Imagine talking to seniors to find out about them, rather than just using fantasy to imagine their life as hell because some government statician says their income is lower!

I talk to seniors, and I see them interviewed often for stories on scraping to afford medical costs or other costs of living. My conversations & observations still don't amount to a hill of beans unless I understand how they relate to national statistics as they relate to the poverty line & who lives above and below it.

You are truly clueless. You have one of the most simplistic debating "tactics" I've ever seen...."I talked to some old people, and they said it wasn't a big deal." What a slammin' point that is!

 

[Cancel7]

You moron, they died of which policies? There was no policies and much fewer died.

Look fuck my stories and fuck your storybooks, go out and talk to seniors and ask them straight up: "Do you think the health system now or in 1957 was better and why?"

No, because that would prove nothing. Did you go to college? What grade did you finish? do you understand what anecdotal means? The only thing that means anything are statistics, which can tell us quality of life, average life spans, early deaths, infant mortality rates, death rates for women during childbirth, etc, all key indicators for "when it was better".

Asking a senior citizen when they thought it was better, is something a borderline retard thinks means something. EVERYBODY thinks it was better when they were younger! The Wonder Years. It is human nature.

If you asked their parents when it was better, they would say when they were kids too, until you got all the way back to pre-civil war America, and many would say, yeah, it was better then. Because that's when they were young, those were their wonder years. But in no way could it be said that this was a better country then for the majority of people, even the very people you are asking.

 

[TheDanold]

National health insurance. It's all good, Dano. Don't cry too much whenever you lose the fight.

I'll remember to use that line whenever the government passes something you don't agree with. Real mature.

I bet Dano will even be an old man, cursing the fact that the national health insurance plan is paying for his heart surgery he would've never been able to afford. He'll probably just say he's too weak and he deserved to die. Too bad, man. We love you too. Can't kill you.

No I expect to be self-responsible. My grandfather came to America with nothing, worked very hard and only ever for himself, right up into his 80's and saved a lot, he had money there in his final years of Parkinsons and never asked gov for a dime.
He's my role model.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand, you get older, you know you'll need to save, why not lower taxes drastically, abandon inefficient social welfare programs and allow people the freedom to do so?

 

[Cypress]

It moves to force people to buy insurance even if they don't want it.

"Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton said Tuesday that a mandate requiring every American to purchase health insurance was the only way to achieve universal health care
She said she could envision a day when "you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview "
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_ap_interview_6

And of course you would have higher waiting lists, she is offering a government run plan that would be cheaper (subsidized by her large tax increase). Make a good or service cheaper and people use it more heavily (higher demand with same supply), correspondingly waiting times go up.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/HL702.cfm

"It moves to force people to buy insurance even if they don't want it."

Excellent.

EVERYONE already uses healthcare whether they want to pay for it or not. I'm tired of paying for the 20 year old guy who doesn't have healthcare, and then goes to the emergency room for a broken leg, or a severe infection. That crap winds up getting billed to our insurance policy holders indirectly anyway.

 

[Cancel7]

"I feel very sorry for you and even sorrier for anyone dependent on you, but your ideology, whatever it is, is going nowhere. And that's a good thing."


I often pray that the GOP will take up Dano's ideas as part of their national platform...

Good idea, I will join you in that, and start praying for it tonight.

 

[Onceler]

I'm surprised to hear Dano advocate higher taxes to pay for the uninsured in all of these different areas.

You think you know a guy...

 

[TheDanold]

No, because that would prove nothing. Did you go to college? What grade did you finish? do you understand what anecdotal means? The only thing that means anything are statistics, which can tell us quality of life, average life spans, early deaths, infant mortality rates, death rates for women during childbirth, etc, all key indicators for "when it was better".

Asking a senior citizen when they thought it was better, is something a borderline retard thinks means something. EVERYBODY thinks it was better when they were younger! The Wonder Years. It is human nature.

If you asked their parents when it was better, they would say when they were kids too, until you got all the way back to pre-civil war America, and many would say, yeah, it was better then. Because that's when they were young, those were their wonder years. But in no way could it be said that this was a better country then for the majority of people, even the very people you are asking.

But most Liberals tell me how life was so much worse before Liberal social welfare policy 'X' came into being...could it be you were all lying?

Seriously, I'm not asking for a life comparison, I'm asking for a health comparison. You won't do it because you know I am right.

 

[Cancel7]

But most Liberals tell me how life was so much worse before Liberal social welfare policy 'X' came into being...could it be you were all lying?

Seriously, I'm not asking for a life comparison, I'm asking for a health comparison. You won't do it because you know I am right.

A health comparison, but not a life comparison? I'm not even sure what that means, but are you making the claim that you can have a better life but worse health?

If liberals tell you that and back it up with "my grandfather said, when he was young" then I wouldn't accept that as evidence if I was you.

 

[Onceler]

"Seriously, I'm not asking for a life comparison, I'm asking for a health comparison. You won't do it because you know I am right."

How can you possibly compare the 1940's to 2007 based on a few conversations with older people?

Do you know how many diseases & conditions that used to kill & debilitate people back then have been cured & alleviated? Can you make an honest comparison of the equipment & medication that they had now vs. what we have today? Can you compare overall costs of medical care - from college tuitions to facilities to massive population increases - between the 1940's and today?

Or, would you rather stick with the hopelessly simplistic "The old people I know say it was much better then!"

Retarded. Absolutely pathetic.

 

[TheDanold]

"It moves to force people to buy insurance even if they don't want it."

Excellent.

EVERYONE already uses healthcare whether they want to pay for it or not. I'm tired of paying for the 20 year old guy who doesn't have healthcare, and then goes to the emergency room for a broken leg, or a severe infection. That crap winds up getting billed to our insurance policy holders indirectly anyway.

Well I agree with you, so repeal the law that forces hospitals to have to give care to anyone even without insurance. Let them take responsibility for themselves and depend on private charity if they really can't.

Your philosophy is essentially to deny freedom under the theory that the consequences cannot be stomached...well don't expect freedom to last too long then. I can just picture cypriss like idiots in 2050:
"Oh but we have to have Universal Funeralcare, why you uncaring Conservative, you can't just let them get buried with a common shovel, that's mean!" (Even though of course this type of thing pretty much never happens.)

 

[uscitizen]

everything was better when we were younger, even the bad times....

 

[Cancel7]

"Seriously, I'm not asking for a life comparison, I'm asking for a health comparison. You won't do it because you know I am right."

How can you possibly compare the 1940's to 2007 based on a few conversations with older people?

Do you know how many diseases & conditions that used to kill & debilitate people back then have been cured & alleviated? Can you make an honest comparison of the equipment & medication that they had now vs. what we have today? Can you compare overall costs of medical care - from college tuitions to facilities to massive population increases - between the 1940's and today?

Or, would you rather stick with the hopelessly simplistic "The old people I know say it was much better than!"

Retarded. Absolutely pathetic.

Yes that is what i don't understand. I wonder how many really old people Dano has talked to who lost a brother or sister at a very young age, in childhood? Because even if you just talk to old people for your information on this, and I agree completely that you cannot in anyway make a comparison based on that, but even if that's all you did...you don't only hear good stories. So he is FOS all around.

 

[TheDanold]

I talk to seniors, and I see them interviewed often for stories on scraping to afford medical costs or other costs of living. My conversations & observations still don't amount to a hill of beans unless I understand how they relate to national statistics as they relate to the poverty line & who lives above and below it.

You are truly clueless. You have one of the most simplistic debating "tactics" I've ever seen...."I talked to some old people, and they said it wasn't a big deal." What a slammin' point that is!

Do you think that they could better afford healthcare and to save for healthcare when older if they didn't have to pay Medicaid/Medicare and other health taxes?

 

[uscitizen]

Well I agree with you, so repeal the law that forces hospitals to have to give care to anyone even without insurance. Let them take responsibility for themselves and depend on private charity if they really can't.

Your philosophy is essentially to deny freedom under the theory that the consequences cannot be stomached...well don't expect freedom to last too long then. I can just picture cypriss like idiots in 2050:
"Oh but we have to have Universal Funeralcare, why you uncaring Conservative, you can't just let them get buried with a common shovel, that's mean!" (Even though of course this type of thing pretty much never happens.)

Ahh but paupers funerals happen daily....

 

[Cypress]

Do you think that they could better afford healthcare and to save for healthcare when older if they didn't have to pay Medicaid/Medicare and other health taxes?

Its a fair point. I think the republican party should make it their platform, and state loudly and proudly, that we're going to eliminate Medicare, and put people into medical savings accounts instead.

 

[Cancel7]

Well I agree with you, so repeal the law that forces hospitals to have to give care to anyone even without insurance. Let them take responsibility for themselves and depend on private charity if they really can't.

Your philosophy is essentially to deny freedom under the theory that the consequences cannot be stomached...well don't expect freedom to last too long then. I can just picture cypriss like idiots in 2050:
"Oh but we have to have Universal Funeralcare, why you uncaring Conservative, you can't just let them get buried with a common shovel, that's mean!" (Even though of course this type of thing pretty much never happens.)

Listen dude, if you were running this place, none of us would be alive in 2015, never mind 2050, to say anything.

I have never before seen anyone, no matter how far on the right, advocate for appealing laws mandating Emergency rooms care for the sick and wounded. Never. it is so beyond heartless that I cannot even look at you and say, well we have a difference of opinion but he means well.

You don't mean well Dano.

 

[Cancel7]

Its a fair point. I think the republican party should make it their platform, and state loudly and proudly, that we're going to eliminate Medicare, and put people into medical savings accounts instead.

LOL Yeah, really.

 

[TheDanold]

Yes that is what i don't understand. I wonder how many really old people Dano has talked to who lost a brother or sister at a very young age, in childhood? Because even if you just talk to old people for your information on this, and I agree completely that you cannot in anyway make a comparison based on that, but even if that's all you did...you don't only hear good stories. So he is FOS all around.

Don't start being dishonest, I know technology and amount of cures is better now, BUT I'm talking comparing the things that can be compared rationally, so things like cost, human provided treatment, speed of service.


What I've never gotten is how Liberals blame all the ills of healthcare on profit, when profit has been around forever in healthcare. And they get away with that lie over and over.

 

[Jarod]

I call bullshit, the only time I've ever heard of healthcare being bought in Canada is when people are visiting and suddenly need emergency healthcare. Why would anyone go? Huge waiting lists coupled with a much higher charge in healthcare because the state really doesn't care how much non-voting foreigners pay.
Plus less talent, as more of the better doctors fled to the US for better pay.

My uncle says its much cheaper than going while here. He has medicare but perfers to use the Canadian system which is free for him as he owns a home in BC.