Liberal Canadian Politician Goes to US for Healthcare

[Onceler]

What I've never gotten is how Liberals blame all the ills of healthcare on profit, when profit has been around forever in healthcare. And they get away with that lie over and over.

Liberals blame all of the ills of healthcare on profit?

Did you take some sort of "simplemindedness 101" class, or something along those lines?

 

[Cypress]

Don't start being dishonest, I know technology and amount of cures is better now, BUT I'm talking comparing the things that can be compared rationally, so things like cost, human provided treatment, speed of service.


What I've never gotten is how Liberals blame all the ills of healthcare on profit, when profit has been around forever in healthcare. And they get away with that lie over and over.

No one here has ever said that Doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceuticals can't make profit. Those people actually provide healthcare. Insurance companies don't provide healthcare. They are middlemen. I'm glad my doctor makes a profit. I want her to be rich and happy. No one here has talked about a government take over of hospitals, or turning doctors into non-profit government employees.

Where talking about reforming the way that Doctors and hospitals get paid. Insurance companies don't provide healthcare. They pay people and make profits. They are a middleman. That's the whole point of single payer health insurance.

 

[TheDanold]

Listen dude, if you were running this place, none of us would be alive in 2015, never mind 2050, to say anything.

I have never before seen anyone, no matter how far on the right, advocate for appealing laws mandating Emergency rooms care for the sick and wounded. Never. it is so beyond heartless that I cannot even look at you and say, well we have a difference of opinion but he means well.

You don't mean well Dano.

I mean very well and if we have charities for such absurd things as sending kids to summer camp or what have you, do you really think that people would not contribute to something as critical as that?

A lot of the whole reason that those laws came into being is because some lefty said: "In a society as wealthy as ours, why can't we as a society provide _____?" Then they pass a program to do/force that thing (like emergency healthcare).
Imagine for a moment if that law didn't pass though, do you really think that we as a society would ignore those people? Of course not.

The problem is you don't really trust people, specifically you don't trust in the good of people, you believe that the state must force the good from people because otherwise it wouldn't be there and you are wrong. But worse you go down a road where freedom can never possibly endure because nobody can be trusted to do anything good so the state must grow endlessly to take on new responsibility after new responsibility.
Yesterday retirement, today healthcare, tomorrow who knows...daycare? funerals? food? clothing? housing? The skies the limit, people forcibly and gradually reduced back to serfdom with one big master instead of several smaller ones.

Hard as you may find it Darla, and I do know you mean well, but I find your philosophy repulsive and not just a difference of opinion.

 

[TheDanold]

Liberals blame all of the ills of healthcare on profit?

Did you take some sort of "simplemindedness 101" class, or something along those lines?

Um no actually I just read threads from Desh, Saoirse, cypriss, Darla and others. Maybe you missed them when you were constantly following me around thread to thread like a l'il ol puppy dog.

 

[Onceler]

Don't start being dishonest, I know technology and amount of cures is better now, BUT I'm talking comparing the things that can be compared rationally, so things like cost, human provided treatment, speed of service.
.

I don't think you've even had one conversation with an older person about this, much less enough to form a reasonable conclusion.

How does such a conversation go? You ask them how they feel about the healthcare system in the '40's vs. now, but ask them to limit their answer to "speed of service" and "cost," as opposed to facilities, equipment, cures available & other factors?

You're just pulling garbage out of your buttocks, as usual.

 

[Cancel7]

No one here has ever said that Doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceuticals can't make profit. Those people actually provide healthcare. Insurance companies don't provide healthcare. They are middlemen. I'm glad my doctor makes a profit. I want her to be rich and happy. No one here has talked about a government take over of hospitals, or turning doctors into non-profit government employees.

Where talking about reforming the way that Doctors and hospitals get paid. Insurance companies don't provide healthcare. They pay people and make profits. They are a middleman. That's the whole point of single payer health insurance.

And their interests lie in, and soley in, denying coverage to increase profit. That's what a business does, works to increase profit.

The fact is, that in this case, that's costing lives. I find that unacceptable.

 

[Timshel]

No one here has ever said that Doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceuticals can't make profit. Those people actually provide healthcare. Insurance companies don't provide healthcare. They are middlemen. I'm glad my doctor makes a profit. I want her to be rich and happy. No one here has talked about a government take over of hospitals, or turning doctors into non-profit government employees.

Where talking about reforming the way that Doctors and hospitals get paid. Insurance companies don't provide healthcare. They pay people and make profits. They are a middleman. That's the whole point of single payer health insurance.

Insurance has become a part of the market due to the government. Hillary's plan even increases their presence. Single payer only nationalizes insurance services.

 

[Cancel7]

I don't think you've even had one conversation with an older person about this, much less enough to form a reasonable conclusion.

How does such a conversation go? You ask them how they feel about the healthcare system in the '40's vs. now, but ask them to limit their answer to "speed of service" and "cost," as opposed to facilities, equipment, cures available & other factors?

You're just pulling garbage out of your buttocks, as usual.

I'll tell you one thing, if those are the questions he is asking...is it any wonder the door to door thing "didn't work out"?

The word must have spread among the fogies pretty quickly. Don't answer your door!

 

[TheDanold]

No one here has ever said that Doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceuticals can't make profit. Those people actually provide healthcare. Insurance companies don't provide healthcare. They are middlemen. I'm glad my doctor makes a profit. I want her to be rich and happy. No one here has talked about a government take over of hospitals, or turning doctors into non-profit government employees.

Ok now we're getting somewhere. I agree, insurance companies are middle men. I don't want and don't want others to be forced to pay for middlemen (be it insurance corporations or government) to access the service they want. They can do so if they choose to...by their own free will.

Where talking about reforming the way that Doctors and hospitals get paid. Insurance companies don't provide healthcare. They pay people and make profits. They are a middleman. That's the whole point of single payer health insurance.

You are just changing middle men, instead it will be the government. And on top of that I will be forced to pay them in taxes, rather than be optional.

I also find it odd you say that because Hillary's plan is a boone to insurance companies, she mandates having health insurance.

 

[TheDanold]

I don't think you've even had one conversation with an older person about this, much less enough to form a reasonable conclusion.

How does such a conversation go? You ask them how they feel about the healthcare system in the '40's vs. now, but ask them to limit their answer to "speed of service" and "cost," as opposed to facilities, equipment, cures available & other factors?

You're just pulling garbage out of your buttocks, as usual.

I have talked to many, I would say out of every candidate I've ever tried to get in office, probably 2/3rd's of the volunteers are seniors.

 

[Cancel7]

I have talked to many, I would say out of every candidate I've ever tried to get in office, probably 2/3rd's of the volunteers are seniors.

I see. So every one of these seniors shared your very radical ideology.

Great sampling of opinion.

And again, whether they agree with you or not, what they feel about "the olden days" is irrelevant.

 

[uscitizen]

Yes but for every one active and doing well senior you see out doing volunteer work there are several more not doing nearly so well.
Hit the VA old farts home or somesuch. And those are doing well considering their condition.
I personally know older folks than I that have to decide on medicine or food.
btw many have hit that hole in the middle of the pill bill where it pays nothing....

You claim to understand the situation of the elderly Dano ?
You clearly know nothing except parroted partisan spin.

 

[ib1yysguy]

Other than Dano's supposed conversations with senile fogies, does he have any real documented evidence that it was "better"?

 

[Onceler]

I have talked to many, I would say out of every candidate I've ever tried to get in office, probably 2/3rd's of the volunteers are seniors.

Well, I'm calling BS on that, or at least BS on what you think you heard.

I sincerely doubt any senior would trade today's medical care system for the 1940's. I just can't hear anyone saying "you know, those cures for things like polio & heart valves really drove up costs; I'd rather spend less & have more speedy service, like in the good ol' days..."

 

[Cancel7]

Other than Dano's supposed conversations with senile fogies, does he have any real documented evidence that it was "better"?

No, sorry.

But do come back tomorrow anyway, because he is going to gather the fogies around tonight for a fireside chat and he will have new fogey stories for us.

 

[TheDanold]

The odd thing is that Democrat politicians also say that today's healthcare in cost, time of service and quality of human care is worse. I guess all the Dems on here can go ahead and make fun of them now.

The Dems on here are so blinded by Dano-hate, they don't even stop to think about what they are arguing, one could look at what they wrote and come up with a decent defence of today's healthcare system.

The real difference is that I think it got worse because of government regulation/taxation/involvement (things that are relatively new) whereas the Liberal Democrat politicians think it got worse because of profit (something that's been around in healthcare forever)

 

[Timshel]

And their interests lie in, and soley in, denying coverage to increase profit. That's what a business does, works to increase profit.

And denying service to customers is usually not a good way to increase your profits. It is a good way to lose customers. Hillary has a solution! Force everybody to buy the insurance anyway.

You will likely respond that we need single payer, but this does not change the desire to control costs by denying service, which is what the government does in every area it takes over.

 

[Cypress]

And their interests lie in, and soley in, denying coverage to increase profit. That's what a business does, works to increase profit.

The fact is, that in this case, that's costing lives. I find that unacceptable.

Well said.

I frankly think we need single payer national health insurance, to reform the way we pay doctors. Through some non-profit public entity. That's the most effective means of healthcare delivery, though nothing's perfect. I mean, insurance companies aren't providing healthcare.

But, if we ever even get there, it will probably have to be incremental. Its not going to happen overnight. And I guess that's why Edwards/Obama/Romney/Clinton know this.

 

[uscitizen]

And denying service to customers is usually not a good way to increase your profits. It is a good way to lose customers. Hillary has a solution! Force everybody to buy the insurance anyway.

You will likely respond that we need single payer, but this does not change the desire to control costs by denying service, which is what the government does in every area it takes over.

Umm health care is not quite like selling widgets....

 

[Cancel7]

And denying service to customers is usually not a good way to increase your profits. It is a good way to lose customers. Hillary has a solution! Force everybody to buy the insurance anyway.

You will likely respond that we need single payer, but this does not change the desire to control costs by denying service, which is what the government does in every area it takes over.

Right, because people who are lucky enough to have health insurance, through their employers, are in the position to "go elsewhere'.

Please. Do you guys even live in the real world? Do any of you have health insurance? Go to the doctor? I mean, you guys are real, right?

The government isn't in business. Insurance companies are.