Morality is all in your mind.

[Daylight63]

You look at morality for its utility: i.e., a more stable society, better property values, less crime.

Yes. That is what I think its role is and hence why I focus on that.

You can get that with communist China.

And we're back on the "bad atheist" wagon....

They are a stable society, with a much lower crime rate that the United States. I was impressed with the clean streets, low crime rate, "stability" of society in the dictatorship of Belarus.

Dictatorship. OK. Atheism dictators, vicious murderers evil to the core. Yeah we are quite familiar with your view of atheists.

I do not think utility is the way to measure morality, at best it's a secondary benefit.

What is the benefit of morality?

I have told you this before, please don't make me keep repeating it: I believe the moral conscience when cultivated points you to a belief that there is an inherent and innate value to human life,

Why??

beyond the collection of quarks and electrons that make us up. The belief that humans are endowed with an innate dignity and value independent of molecules and biochemical reactions is the reason an objective moral truth makes sense to me.

"Innate dignity". That's meaningless pablum.

But my opinion seems to make you angry and agitated.

Not at all! I'm quite OK with your opinion. This is something called a "debate" or a "discussion". We are allowed to and actually encouraged to disagree.

We see throughout history and our life experiences that once the religious concept of the innate value of human life takes hold and is cultivated, it manifests as a powerful moral truth.

No it doesn't. That's an absurd claim on the face of it. The Crusades were done in the name of God by people who had been worshipping the CHristian God for a milennium.

Your point is clearly wrong.

Once they are inculcated to a Judeo-Christian, Islamic, Buddhist ethical framework, you really don't see people reverting back to cannibalism and ritual human sacrifice. The moral "highway" is not a two-way street.

Wow. That's ignoring all of history.

 

[Cypress]

Yes. That is what I think its role is and hence why I focus on that.



And we're back on the "bad atheist" wagon....



Dictatorship. OK. Atheism dictators, vicious murderers evil to the core. Yeah we are quite familiar with your view of atheists.



What is the benefit of morality?



Why??



"Innate dignity". That's meaningless pablum.



Not at all! I'm quite OK with your opinion. This is something called a "debate" or a "discussion". We are allowed to and actually encouraged to disagree.



No it doesn't. That's an absurd claim on the face of it. The Crusades were done in the name of God by people who had been worshipping the CHristian God for a milennium.

Your point is clearly wrong.



Wow. That's ignoring all of history.

You're welcome to believe a human life has no innate value and dignity.

But that's what I believe. And I believe the developed human conscience points us in that direction.

It doesn't bother me if you measure morality by its utility. I don't find utilitarianism to be a persuasive grounding for morality, but it's fine if you do.

I don't measure morality by consequence or utility. Neither did Plato, Confucious, or Kant. The deontological view of morality is perfectly well established in human intellectual history, whether or not it aggravates you.

 

[Daylight63]

You're welcome to believe a human life has no innate value and dignity.

“Dignity “. Appeal to emotion

But that's what I believe. And I believe the developed human conscience points us in that direction.

It doesn't bother me if you measure morality by its utility. I don't find utilitarianism to be a persuasive grounding for morality, but it's fine if you do.

I don't measure morality by consequence or utility. Neither did Plato, Confucious, or Kant. The deontological view of morality is perfectly well established in human intellectual history, whether or not it aggravates you.

Again, doesn’t aggravate me. You are the one demonizing my position all the time with your constant appeal to emotion

 

[Cypress]

“Dignity “. Appeal to emotion


Again, doesn’t aggravate me. You are the one demonizing my position all the time with your constant appeal to emotion

I didn't force you to base morality on utility.
If you are agitated that your moral framework is grounded in the notion of utility, you probably need to self-assess the strength of your conviction.

If you do not think a human life has innate value, and that utility is the proper measure of morality, that's your choice

 

[Daylight63]

I didn't force you to base morality on utility
If you are agitated that your moral framework is grounded in the notion of utility, you probably need to self assess the strength of your conviction.

I am not agitated. I know it is important to you to think I am for some mysterious reason. Remember you are spending all your time trying to find the most emotionally charged language to describe atheists as dictators, madmen and psychopaths.

 

[Daylight63]

@Cypress since we've entered the part of the discussion where you obsess on what my emotional state is I'm willing to drop the discussion. It is clear that you are no longer interested in the discussion. So I'll just leave it there.

Thanks for the talk as long as it lasted.

 

[Cypress]

I am not agitated. I know it is important to you to think I am for some mysterious reason. Remember you are spending all your time trying to find the most emotionally charged language to describe atheists as dictators, madmen and psychopaths.

I just said that if "stable societies" was the utility you measure morality by, you can get stable societies with a dictatorship. Many dictatorships have less crime, cleaner cities, more uniform social structures than the United States of America. It has nothing to do with atheism. Vladimir Putin is a practicing Orthodox Christian.

Basing your moral framework on the basis of utility is not persuasive to me.
And I suspect it's not persuasive to you either, judging from how agitated you get about this.

My moral framework is based on my conscience pointing me to the fact that an individual human life is endowed with innate value. That is independent of utility and consequence.
That can't be proven with chemical equations and laboratory experiments. But conscience, intuition, and instinct are valid forms of accessing knowledge.