Morality Question

Hawkeye10 said:
Sound Transit does not give a flying fuck whether I pay or not.

So why should I?

Dont B A CHUMP!
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So your morality question is "if I can get away with stealing, why not?" Well, two answers:
1) Morality says you should not steal, even if you can get away with it.
2) Why are you so sure you can get away with it?

Jonathan Paul Burrows realized he could dodge train fares, and believed he would not be arrested. He was right, but did not realized that if it were made public he would lose his extremely lucrative job as a London finance trader. If we cannot trust him with the little things, we cannot trust him with the big things.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-services-industry-blackrock-jonathan-burrows

Paras Shah was caught stealing food from the Citibank cafeteria, and lost a job worth millions of dollars.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51369410
 
Walt said:
So your morality question is "if I can get away with stealing, why not?" Well, two answers:
1) Morality says you should not steal, even if you can get away with it.
2) Why are you so sure you can get away with it?

Jonathan Paul Burrows realized he could dodge train fares, and believed he would not be arrested. He was right, but did not realized that if it were made public he would lose his extremely lucrative job as a London finance trader. If we cannot trust him with the little things, we cannot trust him with the big things.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-services-industry-blackrock-jonathan-burrows

Paras Shah was caught stealing food from the Citibank cafeteria, and lost a job worth millions of dollars.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51369410
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Sound Transit has said straight up that for the next eight months no one will be punished for not paying, as has been the case for about a year now. If we want to ride for free then we can they say. So why should I pay....that seems stupid.....if they dont care if I pay why should I pay?


Fare ambassadors give Sound Transit a less intimidating way of checking that riders are paying their fares. The agency also wanted more diversity in their fare enforcement staff. CEO Peter Rogoff said the goal is to create more equitable fare collection processes.

“We are pleased in our new hires that they are able to reflect the diversity of the community that we’ve served,” Rogoff told the Sound Transit Board last month.

Rogoff said this shift is about passenger education and customer service, not enforcement. There will be no citations written during this eight-month pilot program, so you can essentially ride the trains for free, if you choose to.

“They will be focusing on low-income fare outreach, rather than discipline,” Rogoff said.

Just like the fare enforcement officers in the past, these new fare ambassadors will enter both ends of the train car and work toward the middle, asking everyone for proof of payment. Those who have not paid will be given a card with a QR code for the fare engagement website. It will inform them of low-income ORCA card options or subsidized passes.
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https://mynorthwest.com/3144490/fare-ambassadors-replace-officers-on-sound-transit-trains/?
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Sound Transit has said straight up that for the next eight months no one will be punished for not paying, as has been the case for about a year now. If we want to ride for free then we can they say. So why should I pay....that seems stupid.....if they dont care if I pay why should I pay?
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Morally, you should not steal even if you can get away with it. You framed this as a moral question, so that is the moral answer.

Socially, you can lose social status, and be punished even if you are not criminally punished. There are many rules of society that are polite, but not legal. If you break those rules, you are punished by loss of status.

I gave two examples of people who thought they could get away with stealing small amounts of money, because they would not be criminally punished. The reality is that if people see you stealing small amounts of money, they will not trust you with large amounts of money. One of the main ways to get wealthy in modern capitalism is to have people trust you with their money.
 
Walt said:
Morally, you should not steal even if you can get away with it. You framed this as a moral question, so that is the moral answer.

Socially, you can lose social status, and be punished even if you are not criminally punished. There are many rules of society that are polite, but not legal. If you break those rules, you are punished by loss of status.

I gave two examples of people who thought they could get away with stealing small amounts of money, because they would not be criminally punished. The reality is that if people see you stealing small amounts of money, they will not trust you with large amounts of money. One of the main ways to get wealthy in modern capitalism is to have people trust you with their money.
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It is not stealing if the provider does not care if I pay, if the paying is voluntary.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
It is not stealing if the provider does not care if I pay, if the paying is voluntary.
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The punishment for not paying your social debts has always been that people do not trust you. Sometimes it is that you go to prison on top of that, but it always comes back to people not trusting you.
 
If most everyone did not pay Sound Transit would be forced to change their policy, they would need to either demand payment or figure out a way to finance operations without fares. I argue that refusing to pay under current condition is an act of civil disobedience, forcing them to come up with a more equitable policy then allowing the chumps to pay, as the not chumps to ride for free. Of course it is not really for free, the taxpayers fund operations far more so than the users, less than 10% of their monies currently come from fares.
 
Walt said:
The punishment for not paying your social debts has always been that people do not trust you. Sometimes it is that you go to prison on top of that, but it always comes back to people not trusting you.
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I dont trust Sound Transit, who are obligated to see to it that riders pay the legal and published charges, but are refusing to do so.

I am arguing that Sound Transit needs a tune-up, and that we the people are in a position to administer one, by refusing to pay.
 
I should point out that a little wrinkle is that I am a citizen of Thurston County, which does not pay into Sound Transit via various taxes. If I was a citizen of a Sound Transit County I would be, if we were to accept the argument that not paying the fare is stealing, I would be stealing from myself and the other taxpayers. I think this strengthens the argument that not paying as a acceptable form of civil disobedience protesting Sound Transit policy of not caring if fares are paid.
 
Jack said:
In San Diego they have something similar. The whole idea is to get people from 'DRIVING' and start taking Public Transit.
It's CHEAPER to subsidize Public Transit than build ANOTHER Freeway Lane.

(Every Driver would gladly pay the Transit Fare of the next Driver to get him OFF the road)
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Correct, in States as Florida, where public transit is rare and inefficient, eventually they are going to run out of room adding lanes, and don't ever get caught at a traffic light
 
Pilot program adds 60,000 riders in one month
Olympia, Wash., embraced free bus service this year, which previously cost $1.25 for a typical adult ride and $3 for an express bus from Lakewood to Tacoma.

The “Zero-Fare Demonstration Project,” which involved two-and-a-half years of strategic planning, went into effect on Jan. 1 this year and will last for the next five, at which point the city will re-evaluate the project’s impact.

Clark Gilman, Olympia City Council member and local transit authority board member, says the slogan of the campaign was to be “bold and unafraid.” After a ballot measure was passed to approve an additional sales tax for public transportation purposes, going fare-free was actually the most cost-effective option for Olympia for several reasons.

First, the cash boxes that collected fares on Olympia city buses were no longer being produced, he says. This forced city procurement specialists to use eBay to bid on old cash boxes from surplus and decommissioned buses from other cities.

Additionally, the cost of the plastic fare cards already in use was rising, due to trade tariffs imposed by the Trump administration.
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https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/02/free-public-transportation-is-a-reality-in-100-citiesheres-why.html


What is not said is that this was paid for by doubling the transit sales tax, which was sold as a way to add service then almost immediately after the citizens foolishly approved it Intercity Transit instead plowed the majority of the new money into eliminating fares, which we get told in this article was the plan all along. We were lied to.

My lack of trust in my local transit agencies runs deep, and is part of my willingness to be a part of a citizens revolt.
 
Transit with no fares has been tried many times over the years, and there is again a huge push to do it. The problem always is that the bums ride around all day causing problems, which not only does not help society, it harms it, because people avoid using transit because it is dangerous. Over the years almost everyone who ever tries it changes their minds.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Now that's just sad.

Harrisburg_20DUI_20Lawyer_20horse_20dog.JPG
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The legislation was a result of a drunk bike driver who caused a car to veer off the road killing its occupants. I agree it's sad, but legislation is almost always reactionary.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Sound Transit has said straight up that for the next eight months no one will be punished for not paying, as has been the case for about a year now. If we want to ride for free then we can they say. So why should I pay....that seems stupid.....if they dont care if I pay why should I pay?



https://mynorthwest.com/3144490/fare-ambassadors-replace-officers-on-sound-transit-trains/?
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You couldn't afford a train ride if you sold your last tooth on the black market.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
If most everyone did not pay Sound Transit would be forced to change their policy, they would need to either demand payment or figure out a way to finance operations without fares. I argue that refusing to pay under current condition is an act of civil disobedience, forcing them to come up with a more equitable policy then allowing the chumps to pay, as the not chumps to ride for free. Of course it is not really for free, the taxpayers fund operations far more so than the users, less than 10% of their monies currently come from fares.
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What a clever and original way to justify theft. Nice going. :laugh:
 
Diesel said:
No no, fuck you, Hawk. You know I know you. I know some of your dark, dirty secrets. You're an alcoholic and a drug addict. You have admitted it to me, Liar.
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Not only that, but he has shown it here multiple times. He's developed an obsession for an elderly spinster lady here, and writes some cringy stuff to her early the morning, when he's deep into his cups. It's hilarious!
 
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