Murder, A New Moral Value
- Thread starter Cancel7
- Start date
I believe you.
Cancel 2016.2
The Almighty
yes, butt you're gullible.
No I'm not. I have great instincts.
I have to go out to lunch with my boss today. And it's going to be a long one. And it's Friday. I kind of resent it.
See you guys later. Don't have too much fun while I'm gone, I'll be jealous, and SF, it ends up that Water, on another thread, is also pms'ing and told you to shut up! . Try not to have a brawl while I'm gone. I'll be jealous over that too.
Ok, that should start enough trouble.
Immanuel
Junior Member
Where did you get this idea? What polls? Is this your opinion or is it fact?
Here is one list of his approval ratings that I found... http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm
31% approval vs. 66% disapproval doesn't sound like strong support at all. Just curious do you have different information? Heck, GOP candidates don't even want Bush to campaign for them.
I am certain you will claim that that 31% is ALL Republicans and maybe you are right but then maybe there are some Democrats that actually support America regardless of who is in the Oval Office? Nah! I doubt that. j/k
Me, I can't support the Administration at all. They lost me with the Patriot Act, degradation of the Constitution, poor management of a phony war and their support of torture and a few other items. The other day, I heard of two groups of segregationalists seeking to dissolve the union and my first thought was "Lynch the Bastards!" This is my country. I love it regardless of its faults. I don't want to be 50 different countries. But, with listening to them on TV last night, they made some good points. Basically get rid of the corrupt federal government. Maybe they have a point?
Immie
Battleborne
Terminator
Just curious...........
Hypothetical:Say Intelligence Officers captured a inside terrorist that was involved in the capture of say a relative or close friend of yours ..and said they would behead this person if demands were not made...then intelligence 'Tortured ' this person to find the location and saved your relative or friend...would you still rant about terrorist rights? Please be honest...no canned response will be considered!
Hypothetical:Say Intelligence Officers captured a inside terrorist that was involved in the capture of say a relative or close friend of yours ..and said they would behead this person if demands were not made...then intelligence 'Tortured ' this person to find the location and saved your relative or friend...would you still rant about terrorist rights? Please be honest...no canned response will be considered!
If your daughter were raped and they caught the guy after torturing an accomplice, would you be satisfied with the fact that they would wind up letting the guy go because the evidence was illegally obtained?
The ends does not always justify the means, the founders of the nation appeared to understand this. Do you?
Now, as for your scenario, of course not, but that is because there is that personal factor edged in there nothing would satisfy me but their death and the return of my relative or close friend unharmed.
It is why we do not let people with a personal stake in the trial onto a Jury, justice is almost never served through retributive emotion.
Immanuel
Junior Member
As far as I am concerned, we developed those rights to protect the innocent. It does not matter to me if the accused is an American Citizen or not. We should protect the rights of the innocent at all costs. That means give them a fair trial and all rights until they are proven guilty.
When you take away those rights then no innocent man, woman or child can expect to be protected from a corrupt government. Maybe this hypothetical prisoner was guilty and deserved death, but maybe he is innocent or maybe some day he is me.
Yes, I will still be ranting against torture because they don't know for certain that this person is guilty of anything.
I am devoutly pro-life. What if hypothetically someday a Democrat like Hillary Clinton becomes President and has a vendetta against the pro-life movement? I damned well better be for protecting the rights of the accused in that case.
Immie
Battleborne
Terminator
I am well aware of the 'Fruit of the poisoness tree' law...I gave the scenario of Intelligence Officers in a combat zone...apples and oranges Damo!
So you stopped reading at that point? One of the reasons that the US has been so successful is because people were never afraid to surrender, they knew they would not be tortured while the US troops were rarely afforded the same. Would you surrender to a group you knew would torture you? I know that I would not willingly do so.
Sometimes what is good for the emotive moment, is not good for the nation as a whole. The reality is, torture simply makes it harder for the troops in the field. The US should always remain true to the values that makes us the US, and yes. This does include during battle.
One of the things VN vets were accused of is torture. Why do you think it was such a heinous accusation? It undermines and makes everything more difficult. It helps to recruit more terrorists, it ensures that surrender will be far more difficult to obtain and that people will continue to fight on instead of willingly surrender to a force with the moral values we are supposed to represent.
As I said, it would be my relative and or good friend, I would WANT them to do anything to get them back, but a real leader would take a far larger view and realize that what is good for the one does not always overshadow what is good for the many, and that selling out our values for minimal gain simply hands the victory to the terrorists, we have become something other than what we were.
I was referring to this poll that I just read this morning, somebody else posted it:
Approval of Bush, Congress Hits New Low
Oct 4 12:46 PM US/Eastern
By ALAN FRAM
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - Public approval for President Bush and Congress has sunk to the lowest levels ever recorded in The Associated Press-Ipsos poll.
Only 31 percent said they approve of the job Bush is doing, according to the survey released on Thursday. His lowest previous approval in the survey was 32 percent—a virtual tie with the new reading—recorded several times, most recently in June.
Only 69 percent of Republicans voiced approval of Bush, about where he has been in recent months but still an anemic showing for a president within his own party. That included only 29 percent from the GOP who said they strongly approve of the job he is doing.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1
29 % of Republicans still strongly approve of the job bush is doing...An amazing statement abotu 29% of the Republican party....
Battleborne
Terminator
Nope...............
You twisted and put spin on my hypothetical...like I said apples and oranges...I said 'captured terrorist' not a surrendering terrorist...so whatever floats your pacifist boat! What goes on in a combat zone is a far cry from civilian courts of law...see history WWII ...Germany/ Werewolfs for example...they were shot on sight without a trial...ended the war in 1946 quite well!
You twisted and put spin on my hypothetical...like I said apples and oranges...I said 'captured terrorist' not a surrendering terrorist...so whatever floats your pacifist boat! What goes on in a combat zone is a far cry from civilian courts of law...see history WWII ...Germany/ Werewolfs for example...they were shot on sight without a trial...ended the war in 1946 quite well!
Immanuel
Junior Member
My point would be with your statement about "captured terrorist".
Who says this person is a terrorist? George Bush? Sorry, but Mr. Bush has lost his credibility with me. I don't trust the man anymore. If it suited him, he might have declared Mother Teresa a terrorist. You know slipped up and said, "Mother Teresa was a terrorist... er, I mean a Saint. I think that is what I mean. Let me check my notes on that."
Granted, your statement was hypothetical and I can live with the "captured terrorist" idea in that the person really was a terrorist. However, until he was proven guilty, I would still fight for his rights.
Of course, convince me that he really was holding a loved one of mine and put me in the room with him and give me an aluminum bat... well, you get the picture. Or in Damo's scenario the rapist and my daughter... well there is the element of human emotion in there which is why I should never be left in the room with an accused rapist of my daughter... may I never have to worry about that.
Immie
Do you eat meat?
Battleborne
Terminator
Whatever Immie..........
Once again...I said captured 'Terrorist' in a combat zone...what part do you not understand?...yes emotion does play a part in everything in life...some must do the dirty work for those with weak stomaches...the job must get done...war is hell everyone accepts this fact...sometimes the glove must come off to reach the end of conflict! Now if we are talking crimes in a civilian court of law...then you and damo are correct...the laws of the land must be applied...I agree!
Once again...I said captured 'Terrorist' in a combat zone...what part do you not understand?...yes emotion does play a part in everything in life...some must do the dirty work for those with weak stomaches...the job must get done...war is hell everyone accepts this fact...sometimes the glove must come off to reach the end of conflict! Now if we are talking crimes in a civilian court of law...then you and damo are correct...the laws of the land must be applied...I agree!
Immanuel
Junior Member
I would have to ask you what part you do not understand?
The point is who declares this person to be a terrorist?
George W. Bush and his administration has/had hundreds of individuals locked up indefinitely in Guantanamo Bay. People that he and his administration have declared to be "terrorists" without trial or legal representation. I wonder how many of those don't even speak our language. I wonder how many of these individuals were just in the wrong place at the wrong time or pissed off the wrong Iraqi and were accused of crimes they did not commit. Without legal rights those who are innocent have no way to prove their innocence and thus must sit in prison maybe for the rest of their lives with no hope of freedom. And then we torture them continuously because they don't give us the answers we want?
Sorry, but that is wrong.
Immie
Immanuel
Junior Member
If I didn't I would starve to death. Most vegetables make me puke when they are cooked.
Why attack me? I'm on your side on this one.
Immie
LOL
I'm not attacking you Immie. I am making a joke, because BB thinks that Damo can't have an opinion on "manly" things like torture, because Damo is a vegetarian.