Murder, A New Moral Value

Immanuel said:
We have gotten nothing to show for it except words. The two new justices have done nothing and there is no proof that if and when the chance comes that they will do anything at all. This President has given us nothing, in fact, he has taken more away from us. He has degraded the U.S. Constitution so much that even civil discourse can lead to one being confined in Gauntanamo Bay or on the terrorist watch list.

How long will it take a Pro-abortion President to put a Pro-lifer on the Terrorist Watch list? Hell, I am not so sure that members of Operation Rescue are not on that list already. Hell, by simply participating on these boards and stating my beliefs, I or anyone on here, may be on such a list.

No, our President has done more to hurt us all than he has done good.

Immie
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Give me evidence where even one person taking part in civil discourse has put anybody in GITMO. Otherwise you are participating in fearmongering based on nothing more than what you want others to fear. People on here have said many, many things against the President and nobody has gone to GITMO. I don't know of any circumstances where that has happened.

However, if the only thing you care about is abortion, then this President has done more than "nothing" for your cause.

While I agree there is much he has done wrong, I can realistically look at what he has done towards that one goal, and see it is more than "nothing".
 
Damocles said:
Give me evidence where even one person taking part in civil discourse has put anybody in GITMO. Otherwise you are participating in fearmongering based on nothing more than what you want others to fear. People on here have said many, many things against the President and nobody has gone to GITMO. I don't know of any circumstances where that has happened.

However, if the only thing you care about is abortion, then this President has done more than "nothing" for your cause.

While I agree there is much he has done wrong, I can realistically look at what he has done towards that one goal, and see it is more than "nothing".
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I was speaking of Jose Padillo. Guilty or not the man deserved at least a fair hearing. Not to be locked up without proper representation.

I did NOT say that anyone had been put in Gitmo for participating in civil discourse. I simply said that the President has opened the doors for this to happen.

Immie
 
Immanuel said:
I was speaking of Jose Padillo. Guilty or not the man deserved at least a fair hearing. Not to be locked up without proper representation.

I did NOT say that anyone had been put in Gitmo for participating in civil discourse. I simply said that the President has opened the doors for this to happen.

Immie
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The courts ruled that he would get a fair hearing, he did in Miami, your fears appear to be unfounded based on that fact.
 
Immanuel said:
As far as I am concerned, we developed those rights to protect the innocent. It does not matter to me if the accused is an American Citizen or not. We should protect the rights of the innocent at all costs. That means give them a fair trial and all rights until they are proven guilty.

When you take away those rights then no innocent man, woman or child can expect to be protected from a corrupt government. Maybe this hypothetical prisoner was guilty and deserved death, but maybe he is innocent or maybe some day he is me.

Yes, I will still be ranting against torture because they don't know for certain that this person is guilty of anything.

I am devoutly pro-life. What if hypothetically someday a Democrat like Hillary Clinton becomes President and has a vendetta against the pro-life movement? I damned well better be for protecting the rights of the accused in that case.

Immie
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Very well said, Immie. The presumption of innocence exists in order to protect all of us, not the guilty. It does, at times, work to the benefit of the guilty. That's just part of the price we pay for our freedom: over the long haul, the alternative is far worse.
 
Damocles said:
Except two likely votes in the SCOTUS. "Nothing to show for it." is a very skewed view.

I am sure there are many pro-abortion or pro-choicers that think there is far too much to show for it.
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Indeed. The supreme court is now dangerously riddled with reactionaries.
 
Damocles said:
The courts ruled that he would get a fair hearing, he did in Miami, your fears appear to be unfounded based on that fact.
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I disagree. If you will note, I never said these things were happening now. I believe (and if I did not I intended to) I insinuated that they could happen. The point being that the door has been opened. Things are getting worse not better.

If you remember, when they first started debating the Patriot Act, I said something to the affect about what if Hillary Clinton becomes the next President of the United States? Well, in all of that, the President has openned the door a little wider to the removal of our civil rights. Maybe Hillary won't be the one that uses these "newly declared" legal privileges of the government against American citizens. Maybe the next 5 President's won't but sooner or later, one of them will. Then where will we be?

Immie
 
Immanuel said:
I disagree. If you will note, I never said these things were happening now. I believe (and if I did not I intended to) I insinuated that they could happen. The point being that the door has been opened. Things are getting worse not better.

If you remember, when they first started debating the Patriot Act, I said something to the affect about what if Hillary Clinton becomes the next President of the United States? Well, in all of that, the President has openned the door a little wider to the removal of our civil rights. Maybe Hillary won't be the one that uses these "newly declared" legal privileges of the government against American citizens. Maybe the next 5 President's won't but sooner or later, one of them will. Then where will we be?

Immie
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Using one more thing that is right about the US to fight that government.
 
Damocles said:
But ours are far more numerous. You cannot take and learn from Iraq, from VN, from the Palestinians?

You have already surrendered. It is sad.
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More numerous? Heck! They've got an entire army not to mention, Navy, Air Force, Marines and a few Coasties to boot!

I imagine we could do better than the Iraqi army but would that be enough?

On second thought, we could ask the French for help.

Immie
 
Immanuel said:
More numerous? Heck! They've got an entire army not to mention, Navy, Air Force, Marines and a few Coasties to boot!

I imagine we could do better than the Iraqi army but would that be enough?

On second thought, we could ask the French for help.

Immie
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They helped out pretty well last time.

You forget that much of that military is made up of "us".

This doom and gloom you feel is far from reality... It does show the wisdom of Amendment 2 though.
 
Damocles said:
They helped out pretty well last time.

You forget that much of that military is made up of "us".

This doom and gloom you feel is far from reality... It does show the wisdom of Amendment 2 though.
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Well, when they come knocking on our doors, don't say I didn't warn you! :pke:

And no, I did not forget that most of that military is made up of us. I thought about that as I was typing. However, convincing them to join us may not be that easy. They've got the upper hand in our freedom fight. Although, I should not discount the fact that the same was said back in 1776 and look where we are today.

Immie
 
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