My struggle to believe

[Rationalist]

I'm a Christian who accepts that all life evolved from a single common ancestor via natural selection. From my perspective, evolution is as much a fact as the Earth revolving around the Sun. Retroviruses alone are essentially proof of evolution.

That said, I've always clung to the hope that both the Bible and evolution could be true...until I read the book of Genesis front to back and found that I don't believe a damn word of it. I could explain away the Genesis account of creation as being a parable, and the flood as being misinterpreted (that it was actually a local flood), but I cannot believe that someone lived until 950 years of age. It all seems utterly preposterous to me.

I am still a Christian; I do believe. However, I am finding it increasingly difficult for the Old Testament to fit with what I know.

 

[Cancel 2016.11]

There is no God. When you die you will cease to exist for all eternity. If you have a human conscience you will treat people as well as you can anyway. If you don't, you will not.

 

[Rationalist]

There is no God. When you die you will cease to exist for all eternity. If you have a human conscience you will treat people as well as you can anyway. If you don't, you will not.

God's existence can be neither proven nor disproven. It is untestable.

 

[apple0154]

I'm a Christian who accepts that all life evolved from a single common ancestor via natural selection. From my perspective, evolution is as much a fact as the Earth revolving around the Sun. Retroviruses alone are essentially proof of evolution.

That said, I've always clung to the hope that both the Bible and evolution could be true...until I read the book of Genesis front to back and found that I don't believe a damn word of it. I could explain away the Genesis account of creation as being a parable, and the flood as being misinterpreted (that it was actually a local flood), but I cannot believe that someone lived until 950 years of age. It all seems utterly preposterous to me.

I am still a Christian; I do believe. However, I am finding it increasingly difficult for the Old Testament to fit with what I know.

Perhaps consider the following.

Religions have been used to explain things we did not know. Considering we didn't have an alternative explanation it was assumed God was responsible. The big selling point in the New Testament was resurrection. Realizing that may not be enough they raised the stakes by throwing in Hell.

The point is we do not know if our spirit lives on as we are just starting to explore the possibility of different dimensions. It may be natural for spirits to live on after physical death and has nothing to do with Gods just as thunder is not due to God being in a bad mood.

If I recall the Bible states that the Kingdom of God is within each of us. I take that to mean the way we live our life on earth will be the way we live in an afterlife. Karma? Or just common sense like the old saying, "Live by the sword, die by the sword."

Regarding the length of life some folks lived it's been postulated the earth was quite different in the past. For example, it's claimed it was more like a greenhouse. A thicker atmospheric layer blocking direct ultra-violet rays from the sun resulting in less physical breakdown of bodies. Foods were uncontaminated. And, of course, there's the alien genetic mutation theory.

The bottom line for me is, to the best of my ability, live the way I would want to live if I was living forever. After all, who would want to live forever if they didn't like the way they were living?

Just saying.

 

[apple0154]

There is no God. When you die you will cease to exist for all eternity. If you have a human conscience you will treat people as well as you can anyway. If you don't, you will not.

My main concern regarding Biblical doctrine, living forever, is we're told those in Heaven do not have physical bodies. All I can say is I hope we don't end up there as being in our late teens/early 20s. The frustration would be unbearable.

 

[/MSG/]

You're using the concept of years here as though there was a finite way to determine them several thousand years ago, or if the concept of a year as we know it now is the same. It's not neccesarily, especially when one considers it in the context of all other creation stories from the same era. \

From your Pagan brother.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Of course, if their sense of time was off, they could have been calculating years via the lunar cycle, which could indicate people living so long...

 

[PostmodernProphet]

I'm a Christian who accepts that all life evolved from a single common ancestor via natural selection. From my perspective, evolution is as much a fact as the Earth revolving around the Sun. Retroviruses alone are essentially proof of evolution.

That said, I've always clung to the hope that both the Bible and evolution could be true...until I read the book of Genesis front to back and found that I don't believe a damn word of it. I could explain away the Genesis account of creation as being a parable, and the flood as being misinterpreted (that it was actually a local flood), but I cannot believe that someone lived until 950 years of age. It all seems utterly preposterous to me.

I am still a Christian; I do believe. However, I am finding it increasingly difficult for the Old Testament to fit with what I know.

so basically, you believe God could create gravity......he could create DNA.......he could create the Horsehead Nebula......he could even raise Lazarus from the dead........but he couldn't keep a guy alive for an extra 875 years if he wanted?.....

 

[USFREEDOM911]

There is no God. When you die you will cease to exist for all eternity. If you have a human conscience you will treat people as well as you can anyway. If you don't, you will not.

While you may cease to be, those who believe will continue on.

 

[Rationalist]

so basically, you believe God could create gravity......he could create DNA.......he could create the Horsehead Nebula......he could even raise Lazarus from the dead........but he couldn't keep a guy alive for an extra 875 years if he wanted?.....

God set natural forces into motion, which led to the formation of stars, planets, and eventually life. At some point, He chose mankind to bear His image. This is how I reconcile what I know to be true (scientific evidence) with the God of the Bible. However, as I read through Genesis, it seems plain to be that it doesn't even remotely mirror reality. Nobody ever lived 969 years. No flood ever covered the entire earth, and the ark as described couldn't have possibly contained every species on earth.

Of course, it is highly possible that the universe is only 6,000 years old, and that Methuselah did live 969 years, and that a flood did cover the whole earth. God could have done it this way, and made everything look billions of years old, and covered up the evidence for the flood, etc. But that wouldn't be a very logical God, and would make Him more like Loki than Yahweh.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

God set natural forces into motion, which led to the formation of stars, planets, and eventually life. At some point, He chose mankind to bear His image. This is how I reconcile what I know to be true (scientific evidence) with the God of the Bible. However, as I read through Genesis, it seems plain to be that it doesn't even remotely mirror reality. Nobody ever lived 969 years. No flood ever covered the entire earth, and the ark as described couldn't have possibly contained every species on earth.

Of course, it is highly possible that the universe is only 6,000 years old, and that Methuselah did live 969 years, and that a global did cover the whole earth. God could have done it this way, and made everything look billions of years old, and covered up the evidence for the flood, etc. But that wouldn't be a very logical God, and would make Him more like Loki than Yahweh.

How about the flood covered Noah's known earth and the Ark carried the species from the area that Noah lived in?
AND
What about the possibility that we haven't attained "God's image" yet?

 

[PostmodernProphet]

God set natural forces into motion, which led to the formation of stars, planets, and eventually life. At some point, He chose mankind to bear His image. This is how I reconcile what I know to be true (scientific evidence) with the God of the Bible. However, as I read through Genesis, it seems plain to be that it doesn't even remotely mirror reality. Nobody ever lived 969 years. No flood ever covered the entire earth, and the ark as described couldn't have possibly contained every species on earth.

Of course, it is highly possible that the universe is only 6,000 years old, and that Methuselah did live 969 years, and that a flood did cover the whole earth. God could have done it this way, and made everything look billions of years old, and covered up the evidence for the flood, etc. But that wouldn't be a very logical God, and would make Him more like Loki than Yahweh.

if God were a basketball player, would he be able to dribble or could he only pass?.....

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

I'm a Christian who accepts that all life evolved from a single common ancestor via natural selection. From my perspective, evolution is as much a fact as the Earth revolving around the Sun. Retroviruses alone are essentially proof of evolution.

That said, I've always clung to the hope that both the Bible and evolution could be true...until I read the book of Genesis front to back and found that I don't believe a damn word of it. I could explain away the Genesis account of creation as being a parable, and the flood as being misinterpreted (that it was actually a local flood), but I cannot believe that someone lived until 950 years of age. It all seems utterly preposterous to me.

I am still a Christian; I do believe. However, I am finding it increasingly difficult for the Old Testament to fit with what I know.

Ah yes, the eschewing of the very inconvenient half of the bible for christians. Always a good first step.

You're getting there. Pretty soon your doubts will expand ever outwards into the new testament.

Talking snakes are ridiculous, but walking on water and rising from the dead isn't?

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

God's existence can be neither proven nor disproven. It is untestable.

This does not make you sound smart or "above it all," any more than saying the same thing about invisible dragons, unicorns, or santa claus.

No, nothing in this universe can ultimately be 100% disproven. There are an infinite number of things that can't be officially disproven.

But there comes a point that the chance of some things existing are so tiny, so immeasurably small, that's it's redundant and silly to pretend/imply/act as if the likelihood of non-existence and existence are the same, or equally valid positions. They are not.

 

[Cancel 2016.11]

This does not make you sound smart or "above it all," any more than saying the same thing about invisible dragons, unicorns, or santa claus.

No, nothing in this universe can ultimately be 100% disproven. There are an infinite number of things that can't be officially disproven.

But there comes a point that the chance of some things existing are so tiny, so immeasurably small, that's it's redundant and silly to pretend/imply/act as if the likelihood of non-existence and existence are the same, or equally valid positions. They are not.

Oh well said! I am actually agnostic, not atheist. That's how I describe myself anyway. But I am pretty sure that God is Santa Clause for grown ups. Realizing you're going to die is one thing, coming to terms with the fact that someday, someday very soon on the grand scale of it all, you will not exist is another. A lot of people just can't deal, and so viola! there's a grey haired man in the sky, kinda like Santa only thinner, and boy does he have a present for you! That's right - eternal life!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I'm a Christian who accepts that all life evolved from a single common ancestor via natural selection. From my perspective, evolution is as much a fact as the Earth revolving around the Sun. Retroviruses alone are essentially proof of evolution.

That said, I've always clung to the hope that both the Bible and evolution could be true...until I read the book of Genesis front to back and found that I don't believe a damn word of it. I could explain away the Genesis account of creation as being a parable, and the flood as being misinterpreted (that it was actually a local flood), but I cannot believe that someone lived until 950 years of age. It all seems utterly preposterous to me.

I am still a Christian; I do believe. However, I am finding it increasingly difficult for the Old Testament to fit with what I know.

That's a false dichotomy Brent. Religion is religion and science is science. They have different rules and functions and there's nothing to say you can't believe in both. It's not like you HAVE to make a choice here. Where is it written that believing in both is mutually exclusive?

I see Genisis as an allegory of God's gift of spirituality to humanity. I see biological evolution as an extremely useful scientific theory that helps model speciation. Why can't I believe in both?

This is the notion I find offensive about most Creationist and their religious literalism. They attempt to create this false dischotomy that one cannot be a Christian, or a person of faith, and believe in accepted scientific principles. That's an utterly falst notion.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

mein Kampf zu glauben.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

There is no God. When you die you will cease to exist for all eternity. If you have a human conscience you will treat people as well as you can anyway. If you don't, you will not.

You know, in a lot of ancient religions, such as Greeco-Roman paganism, the Gods really never attempted to provide any moral guidance. They were simply explanations for natural phenomena, usually ones that happened unpredictably. People got their moral guidance from philosophers.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Oh well said! I am actually agnostic, not atheist. That's how I describe myself anyway. But I am pretty sure that God is Santa Clause for grown ups. Realizing you're going to die is one thing, coming to terms with the fact that someday, someday very soon on the grand scale of it all, you will not exist is another. A lot of people just can't deal, and so viola! there's a grey haired man in the sky, kinda like Santa only thinner, and boy does he have a present for you! That's right - eternal life!

Oddly enough, the Mesopotamians believed that, after you died, everyone went to a dark place under the Earth where there was no light. There was no water here either, but you'd still feel thirst. And there was no food so that, after a while, people would simply begin to pick up the dust from the ground and start chewing on it in a grotesque parody of eating. This happened whether or not you were "good" or "bad", and continued for all eternity.

It's odd that some people would sit around wondering "Hmmm, what happens after we die, guys?", come up with the worst thing possible, and then seriously believe it. Historicans theorize, of course, that this was due to the horrible environment they had to live with. This is in contrast to the Egyptians, who had a relatively stable, nurturing environment, and had a comparatively positive view of the afterlife (which I honestly think might be the basis of later Jewish beliefs). The Greeks had an afterlife that was not quite as bad as the Mesopotamians, but still bad enough that when Epicurus proposed that there was no afterlife, this was actually taken as a positive thing by his believers. Epicurus saved them from the horror of having to live after they died.

I suppose, however, that you need to have a rather shitty afterlife to stave off the question "OK, genius, if it's so great when we die why don't we all just commit suicide and go there right now?" And people with a positive view of the afterlife have had trouble dealing with this question. This has, ironically enough, lead to quite a bit of cruelty on the part of believers in the "positive" position, such as Catholics hysterical hatred and condemnation of people who commit suicide.

 

[Phantasmal]

Oddly enough, the Mesopotamians believed that, after you died, everyone went to a dark place under the Earth where there was no light. There was no water here either, but you'd still feel thirst. And there was no food so that, after a while, people would simply begin to pick up the dust from the ground and start chewing on it in a grotesque parody of eating. This happened whether or not you were "good" or "bad", and continued for all eternity.

It's odd that some people would sit around wondering "Hmmm, what happens after we die, guys?", come up with the worst thing possible, and then seriously believe it. Historicans theorize, of course, that this was due to the horrible environment they had to live with. This is in contrast to the Egyptians, who had a relatively stable, nurturing environment, and had a comparatively positive view of the afterlife (which I honestly think might be the basis of later Jewish beliefs). The Greeks had an afterlife that was not quite as bad as the Mesopotamians, but still bad enough that when Epicurus proposed that there was no afterlife, this was actually taken as a positive thing by his believers. Epicurus saved them from the horror of having to live after they died.

I suppose, however, that you need to have a rather shitty afterlife to stave off the question "OK, genius, if it's so great when we die why don't we all just commit suicide and go there right now?" And people with a positive view of the afterlife have had trouble dealing with this question. This has, ironically enough, lead to quite a bit of cruelty on the part of believers in the "positive" position, such as Catholics hysterical hatred and condemnation of people who commit suicide.

The belief of what happens after death vary within Christianity. Catholicism bases their beliefs on scripture from the New Testament and Appocrypha, the Protestants from other scripture that they interpreted literally. It is hard to believe the oncept when Christianity can't even settle on what is true. I also believe it is a oping mechanism. Humans don't want to die. We don't like the thought of never seeing our loved ones again, thus humans created the concept of heaven and to control the masses, hell to frighten them into pay, pray, obey!