Neuroscientist loses a 25-year bet on consciousness — to a philosopher

I magically had a thought that apparently existed before I thought it that Hume is a very patient person to keep trying to convince moon that are thoughts are not random impulses we have to control over. Example - @moon said: 'I had the thought to run to the toilet before I knew I had to shit, I had no control over that thought. I know this because yesterday I shit my pants for no apparent reason. I guess the thought to go sit on the toilet wasn't already there' LOL
Actually, the reason you don't shit your pants is because your brain, regardless of what you are doing, will create the thought "I need to take a shit" before it happens. It doesn't matter what you're doing, the thought will happen, just as all other thoughts do.
 
@Tobytone @Hume

There is scientific research to backup what I'm saying:

Not only could the researchers predict which pattern they would choose, they could also predict how strongly the participants were to rate their visualisations. With the assistance of machine learning, the researchers were successful at making above-chance predictions of the participants’ volitional choices at an average of 11 seconds before the thoughts became conscious.

Our brains reveal our choices before we’re even aware of them: study​

We like to think that we are in the driver’s seat when it comes to the choice and strength of our everyday thoughts, but new research from UNSW suggests they might be more automatic and unconscious than we think.

A new UNSW study suggests we have less control over our personal choices than we think, and that unconscious brain activity determines our choices well before we are aware of them.

Published in the prestigious Nature journal today, opens in a new window, an experiment carried out in the Future Minds Lab at UNSW School of Psychology showed that free choices about what to think can be predicted from patterns of brain activity 11 seconds before people consciously chose what to think about.

The experiment consisted of asking people to freely choose between two visual patterns of red and green stripes – one of them running horizontally, the other vertically – before consciously imagining them while being observed in a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) machine.

The participants were also asked to rate how strongly they felt their visualisations of the patterns were after choosing them, again while researchers recorded their brain activity during the process.

190306_patterns_1.jpg


Not only could the researchers predict which pattern they would choose, they could also predict how strongly the participants were to rate their visualisations. With the assistance of machine learning, the researchers were successful at making above-chance predictions of the participants’ volitional choices at an average of 11 seconds before the thoughts became conscious.

More:
 
@Hume @Tobytone

Also:

Brain activity can foretell some choices before subjects are conscious of them.​

Posted December 21, 2020

We like to think that when it comes to our daily decisions, we’re the ones running the show. For example, when you opt for the Matcha Green Tea Latte instead of your usual Cinnamon Dulce Latte, you’d like to believe that you made the conscious decision to switch. But what if that purchase intention was already made before you became aware of your decision to buy it?
 
I'm sure all of Christof Koch's neuroscientist buddies would have harangued him not to concede the bet if there was a realistic way to claim science had discovered an explanation for consciousness.
LOL. No doubt some would have harangued him but the fact remains it remains unexplained.

One main reason I think so is that, despite all the advances in AI, producing artificial intelligence that is equal to a human being remains elusive.
 
@Hume @Tobytone

Also:

Brain activity can foretell some choices before subjects are conscious of them.​

Posted December 21, 2020

We like to think that when it comes to our daily decisions, we’re the ones running the show. For example, when you opt for the Matcha Green Tea Latte instead ofTrue your usual Cinnamon Dulce Latte, you’d like to believe that you made the conscious decision to switch. But what if that purchase intention was already made before you became aware of your decision to buy it?
True.

OTOH, as discussed in threads about free will, even if 90% of what we each do is genetic programming or operant conditioning, explaining the remaining 10% is a mystery.

Most animals, like dogs, are 100% genetic programming or learned experience/operant conditioning. People are clearly different, and that difference isn't understood.
 
True.

OTOH, as discussed in threads about free will, even if 90% of what we each do is genetic programming or operant conditioning, explaining the remaining 10% is a mystery.

Most animals, like dogs, are 100% genetic programming or learned experience/operant conditioning. People are clearly different, and that difference isn't understood.
Other than complex language, what makes people different than dogs or other animals?
 
Actually, the reason you don't shit your pants is because your brain, regardless of what you are doing, will create the thought "I need to take a shit" before it happens. It doesn't matter what you're doing, the thought will happen, just as all other thoughts do.
Ok sure, then I thought go to the toilet. lol
 
Was that an unplanned thought of weakness and hate? You can't help it, thoughts just come from the ass, or a least, that's what your buddy thinks and I'm starting to believe it with comments like yours.
You're a Zionist. You deserve the worst, you baby-killing half-wit.
 
A moral conscience, abstract thinking, ability to transcend ourselves and conceive of higher mathematics, spirituality, aesthetic appreciation.
I was referring to:

"Most animals, like dogs, are 100% genetic programming or learned experience/operant conditioning. People are clearly different, and that difference isn't understood."

Clearly we have genetic programming. Other than our learned experiences including complex language, why are we any different than other animals as far as our conditioning, which structure our thoughts and consequently determine our actions?
 
@Tobytone @Hume

There is scientific research to backup what I'm saying:

Not only could the researchers predict which pattern they would choose, they could also predict how strongly the participants were to rate their visualisations. With the assistance of machine learning, the researchers were successful at making above-chance predictions of the participants’ volitional choices at an average of 11 seconds before the thoughts became conscious.

Our brains reveal our choices before we’re even aware of them: study​

We like to think that we are in the driver’s seat when it comes to the choice and strength of our everyday thoughts, but new research from UNSW suggests they might be more automatic and unconscious than we think.

A new UNSW study suggests we have less control over our personal choices than we think, and that unconscious brain activity determines our choices well before we are aware of them.

Published in the prestigious Nature journal today, opens in a new window, an experiment carried out in the Future Minds Lab at UNSW School of Psychology showed that free choices about what to think can be predicted from patterns of brain activity 11 seconds before people consciously chose what to think about.

The experiment consisted of asking people to freely choose between two visual patterns of red and green stripes – one of them running horizontally, the other vertically – before consciously imagining them while being observed in a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) machine.

The participants were also asked to rate how strongly they felt their visualisations of the patterns were after choosing them, again while researchers recorded their brain activity during the process.

190306_patterns_1.jpg


Not only could the researchers predict which pattern they would choose, they could also predict how strongly the participants were to rate their visualisations. With the assistance of machine learning, the researchers were successful at making above-chance predictions of the participants’ volitional choices at an average of 11 seconds before the thoughts became conscious.

More:
See, you should've just started with that instead of attempting to make the point all by yourself. Then, the response would be, what's your point? The OP is about consciousness, why we have it, how we got it. The thread wasn't 'obvious realities about the mind' I'm not thinking about breathing either, but I can consciously contemplate how that is and why, unlike say, a dog or maybe even, a theory I've been working on, a libtard. lol (not suggesting you are one, it's just a little hobby of mine)
 
I was referring to:

"Most animals, like dogs, are 100% genetic programming or learned experience/operant conditioning. People are clearly different, and that difference isn't understood."

Clearly we have genetic programming. Other than our learned experiences including complex language, why are we any different than other animals as far as our conditioning, which structure our thoughts and consequently determine our actions?
A lot of our thoughts and behaviors cannot be explained by the DNA molecule, chromosomes, or evolutionary biology.

We still haven't invented an academic discipline or system of knowledge that is explanatory for significant aspects of human thought and actions.
 
You're a Zionist. You deserve the worst, you baby-killing half-wit.
I'm picturing you, idiotically pedaling to your little Starbucks gathering with three other equally delusional buddies, plotting to dip into your trust fund for a vanity trip to Iran. You haven't been invited, but in your infinite arrogance, you think they desperately need your 'high intelligence'. Am I even close, help me out.

image (47).jpg
 
LOL. No doubt some would have harangued him but the fact remains it remains unexplained.

One main reason I think so is that, despite all the advances in AI, producing artificial intelligence that is equal to a human being remains elusive.
Good point. Is AI ever going to produce a Michelangelo, a Beethoven, a Shakespeare, an Oskar Schindler?

Some people seem to think science has come real close to explaining consciousness, but the report on this 25 year bet debunks that claim.
 
A lot of our thoughts and behaviors cannot be explained by the DNA molecule, chromosomes, or evolutionary biology.

We still haven't invented an academic discipline or system of knowledge that is explanatory for significant aspects of human thought and actions.
Sure. I'd say very little is determined by DNA, chromosomes, etc. The majority is determined by external causes, i.e. everything we experience. We just happen to experience life with complex language, where other animals don't.
 
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