Newtown - the case for seeing the photos

[Bfgrn]

The topic seems to be centered around M. Moore's idea to show pictures of dead children to influence peoples minds....

There are a lot of dead children out there to view....even some from Obama drones, don't the others count for anything ?

So the topic is intact.

Yea and the Huffington Post published pictures of dead children killed by drones to register the outrage by liberals. Did Fox News, Breitbart, Malkin or any of the other right wing propaganda ministries publish pictures of the tens of thousand children killed in Iraq? Didn't think so...

Viewer be advised graphic images

 

[cancel2 2022]

I would proudly frame the photos of the dead children on my wall. Only blood can pay for life, and through their nobel sacrifice, I can enjoy the freedom that I do. The blood of the innocent is the tastiest and most potent blood there is.

You are a sick fuck!!

 

[Howey]

I would proudly frame the photos of the dead children on my wall. Only blood can pay for life, and through their nobel sacrifice, I can enjoy the freedom that I do. The blood of the innocent is the tastiest and most potent blood there is.

Lol...we should have a JPP contest to see who brings in the biggest fish.

 

[Red Mule]

Because if we were to seriously look at the 20 millions of slaughtered children – I mean really look at them, with their bodies blown torn and pulled apart....etc.

Maybe you'd be interested in viewing some abortion pictures too.....you can see ten thousand for every one of the others...

Being a supporter of freedom of choice, I agree with you. People need to see that the vast majority of abortions are bundles of cells and NOT human babies. Left alone and nurtured and with nothing going wrong...yah - then they might BECOME human babies. But one could say the same about a photo of a spurt of sperm and a woman's egg in close proximity. An early abortion is much better than a late term one. And contraception is even better. So, why don't more anti-abortion folks support better and stronger contraception and sex education? That would prevent more abortions than anything else.

But, back to the Newtown massacre...
Yes, I think the photos should be available with the parent's permission. If we are going to be making either or choices, we should confront the reality of what is happening to human bodies caught in the crossfire and not just some philosophical ideology.

 

[NOVA]

Being a supporter of freedom of choice, I agree with you. People need to see that the vast majority of abortions are bundles of cells and NOT human babies. Left alone and nurtured and with nothing going wrong...yah - then they might BECOME human babies. But one could say the same about a photo of a spurt of sperm and a woman's egg in close proximity. An early abortion is much better than a late term one. And contraception is even better. So, why don't more anti-abortion folks support better and stronger contraception and sex education? That would prevent more abortions than anything else.

But, back to the Newtown massacre...
Yes, I think the photos should be available with the parent's permission. If we are going to be making either or choices, we should confront the reality of what is happening to human bodies caught in the crossfire and not just some philosophical ideology.

See that, we agree....people need to see what is the result of both....so show 'em those 'bundles of cells'.....and we'll see.....

ablortion is certainly legal so whats the problem.

As you say...." we should confront the reality of what is happening to human bodies caught in the crossfire and not just some philosophical ideology"

I'll accept that any time.....

The inhuman human bundle of cells...

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/13-weeks-pregnant

 

[007]

Like Auschwitz, eh? Time to forget?

Sick fuck.

More like Benghazi, I mean, what does it matter!!
Death after all is a part of life.

 

[Rune]

on the other hand - without data, how can logic be used appropriately? And the photos are data.

Do you think the shooter was mentally healthy or mentally ill?
Do you think the mental health needs of the population at large are being adequately provided for?
Do you think any mass murderer is mentally stable?
Do you think all mass murderers use guns?
Are you aware of other mass murders of children which did not involve guns?
If you agree that the mental health of the shooter was causative, why are you not seeking easier access to mental health care?
Have you ever attempted to acquire mental health help?

Do you have any idea of the difficulties faced by those who seek help with their mental health issues?
The budget cuts social service providers are continuing to suffer?
The lack of sufficient psychiatrists, pharmacologists, therapists, and the money to pay for them?
That 25% of the population suffers from mental illness at any given time?

Do you understand the meaning of the word freedom?
Were civil rights still being taught when you were a student?
Have you studied statistics?
Do you understand the basis of factual debate?

 

[tekkychick]

Hmm, Rune, not sure why your comments were posted off of my post. I realize I haven't been here long; therefore, I haven't had a chance to discuss everything I would want in terms of better control of guns.

I absolutely think we need to invest more in mental illness; Unfortunately, I didn't see any politicians introducing bills about that; if they had, I would have supported them. Yes, mental health care access MUST be part of the solution - but it's just a part. I also supported the background check bill - background checks need to be universal, accurate, and fast. And of course not all mass murderers use guns - we can look at the Boston bombings for that, caused by pressure cookers. But the pressure cookers killed 3 people; the guns at Newtown killed 27 people (28 adding on the mother). I prefer to focus on those weapons that cause the most destruction. And yes, the planes on 9/11 caused a lot more - but we have cracked down on that avenue of destruction.

I have never said we can eliminate all violence. We have had mass murders always - in the US, you can look back to the early 1900s to see mass murders (do a search - you'll get to the wikipedia article that lists them). But looking at countries that control guns better - they have a lot fewer mass murders (not zero - but fewer). I think our country can do better than we have been doing; I think we can demand more respect for human life than we have been doing; I think we can value those mowed down by guns more than we do. Perhaps you feel less optimistic about our country than I do.

As far as your last four questions - don't know where you're going with them; we could do a whole lot of word-spewing around those four topics. I imagine it would just bore the readers of this forum if I tried to tackle them here. But I'm sure over time we'll hit most of them in one thread or another.

 

[NOVA]

Hmm, Rune, not sure why your comments were posted off of my post. I realize I haven't been here long; therefore, I haven't had a chance to discuss everything I would want in terms of better control of guns.

As far as your last four questions - don't know where you're going with them; we could do a whole lot of word-spewing around those four topics. I imagine it would just bore the readers of this forum if I tried to tackle them here. But I'm sure over time we'll hit most of them in one thread or another.

Do you understand the meaning of the word freedom?
Were civil rights still being taught when you were a student?
Have you studied statistics?
Do you understand the basis of factual debate?


In other words, you don't have any answers....

As your rights and my rights are being eroded every day......everyone has an opinion, yours being no more valid than anyone else's....

 

[tekkychick]

Oh, I have answers:
yes
yes
yes
yes

Happy?

You may feel your rights are being eroded. When it comes to the Patriot Act and the way Habeus Corpus is being eroded, I'd agree with you.

On the other hand, LGBT folks are seeing their rights expand daily. Women's rights are expanding in some areas, retracting in others. Minority rights are mostly expanding.

So it all depends on the right.

Hope my answers suit you; I decided to go for brevity.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I personally avoid looking at photos of murdered people, people killed in natural disasters, etc. But Michael Moore has a pretty compelling argument for why releasing photos of the Newtown victims might be useful. Just reading his description makes me sick. I don't need the pictures to be in favor of greater gun control. But maybe they do need to be shown

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/america-you-must-not-look-away-how-finish-nra

A couple excerpts:

I feel the same way about war journalism and photography. People should see the reality of their decisions and not some sanitized version of it. I don't care if it upsets some niave housewife in Peoria or pisses of some redneck in Tuscaloosa. They're the ones who need to see the reality.

 

[NOVA]

Oh, I have answers:
yes
yes
yes
yes

Happy?

You may feel your rights are being eroded. When it comes to the Patriot Act and the way Habeus Corpus is being eroded, I'd agree with you.

On the other hand, LGBT folks are seeing their rights expand daily. Women's rights are expanding in some areas, retracting in others. Minority rights are mostly expanding.

So it all depends on the right.

Hope my answers suit you; I decided to go for brevity.

They do, to a degree.....as long as eventually come to the conclusion that EVERYONE enjoy the SAME RIGHTS and giving special rights to special groups is
not equal treatment under the law.....that redefining the English language to suit your biases in not equal treatment.
and that we all know what the meaning of 'is' is and don't need it spun into something other than what the dictionary says to suit your view.

And thanks for a civil response.

 

[NOVA]

I feel the same way about war journalism and photography. People should see the reality of their decisions and not some sanitized version of it. I don't care if it upsets some niave housewife in Peoria or pisses of some redneck in Tuscaloosa. They're the ones who need to see the reality.

True....very true.....people need to understand the horror of war....the horror of being a victim....and the horror of being a slave to those that will become our oppressors.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I read his article last month. It is excellent. Emmett Till's courageous mother made a difference. If any of these parents ever do the same thing, it will be the end of the debate.

Another small excerpt:

Veronique Pozner, the mother of Noah, the six-year-old boy described by Dr. Wecht, insisted that the Governor of Connecticut look at Noah in an open casket. "I needed it to be real to him," she said. The Governor wept.

Moore's right and he's wrong. He's right that people need to see these photos so that they can see the consequences of 2nd ammendment literalism. He's wrong and completely mistaken to think that would be the end of the NRA and gun owner advocacy.

Somewhere there is sanity on this issue in the middle ground. We need some common sense gun laws that prevent criminals and the insane from having access fire arms while still respecting the basic right to defend oneself.

To be honest with you I'm fed up with the Michael Moore's and the NRA's of this country. All these extremist do is prevent progress and sound government.

 

[Bfgrn]

Moore's right and he's wrong. He's right that people need to see these photos so that they can see the consequences of 2nd ammendment literalism. He's wrong and completely mistaken to think that would be the end of the NRA and gun owner advocacy.

Somewhere there is sanity on this issue in the middle ground. We need some common sense gun laws that prevent criminals and the insane from having access fire arms while still respecting the basic right to defend oneself.

To be honest with you I'm fed up with the Michael Moore's and the NRA's of this country. All these extremist do is prevent progress and sound government.

Putting Michael Moore in the same category as the NRA is ignorant...REALLY ignorant.

"It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners"
Albert Camus

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Putting Michael Moore in the same category as the NRA is ignorant...REALLY ignorant.

"It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners"
Albert Camus

Are you kidding me? You don't think wanting to ban private ownership of firearms isn't a tad extreme? That is what Moore advocates.

 

[Cancel 2016.11]

Are you kidding me? You don't think wanting to ban private ownership of firearms isn't a tad extreme? That is what Moore advocates.

I'm not in any way defending the asshole you're talking to Mott...so between you and me, how do you know that's Moore's position? Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? It's far more nuanced than given credit for, and he stipulates it's not just gun ownership and really gets into the unique paranoia inherent in America. I would say that coupled with his opinions on health care and the lack of access to mental health care, indicate a much more expansive solution to the problem of gun violence. I have not seen him advocate actually banning private ownership, am I wrong? I could have missed it?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I'm not in any way defending the asshole you're talking to Mott...so between you and me, how do you know that's Moore's position? Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? It's far more nuanced than given credit for, and he stipulates it's not just gun ownership and really gets into the unique paranoia inherent in America. I would say that coupled with his opinions on health care and the lack of access to mental health care, indicate a much more expansive solution to the problem of gun violence. I have not seen him advocate actually banning private ownership, am I wrong? I could have missed it?

I believe he impled that in the link in the OP. As for Bowling for Columbine, I have seen it and it's not really a film about advocating gun control as much as it is a psychological profile about Americas odd love affair with guns and violence.

 

[Cancel 2016.11]

I believe he impled that in the link in the OP. As for Bowling for Columbine, I have seen it and it's not really a film about advocating gun control as much as it is a psychological profile about Americas odd love affair with guns and violence.

Exactly. I love that movie.

I read the op again, I think that it's about ending the NRA, which would not ban private ownership of guns. He does make that comment at the end about the second amendment "we've done nothing to revise or repeal" this...so possibly. I have not heard him come out and state he wants to ban private ownership. I have to say I totally agree with him about the sanctity of the amendment and how it was written by the same men who made black men 3/5ths of a person...and ignored women all together. I mean, it is ironic. I don't want to ban private ownership though. I think I will ask him on twitter!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Exactly. I love that movie.

I read the op again, I think that it's about ending the NRA, which would not ban private ownership of guns. He does make that comment at the end about the second amendment "we've done nothing to revise or repeal" this...so possibly. I have not heard him come out and state he wants to ban private ownership. I have to say I totally agree with him about the sanctity of the amendment and how it was written by the same men who made black men 3/5ths of a person...and ignored women all together. I mean, it is ironic. I don't want to ban private ownership though. I think I will ask him on twitter!

Good point but still my point, regardless about messer Moore view on the issue, is that we tend to go from one extreme to the other. Instead of trying to find common ground and common sense solutions.

I'm always cautious and skeptical when ever I watch a Moore documentary. Documentaries are supposed to be an objective portrayal of facts. Moore though has a point of view in which in his films it has been well documented that he has manipulated people, facts and situations in order to emphasize the point of view he is making. Not exactly what I consider to be either honest, objective or truthful. Still and all I find his films hugely provocative and informative. I would caution anyone not familiar with his films to be skeptical about Moore's point of view and to verify for themselves the veracity of his point of view in his films. Having said that I don't consider Moore either a polemicist or a propagandist or even an issue advocate as much as I consider him a partisan social critic.