NJ State Worker Unions Up in Arms

[Cypress]

That site says benefits for State and County pensions

I thought we were talking about States? (Not counties). And I thought we were talking about benefits in total. Not just pension.

this site cherry-picks only pensions, and lumps state in with county.

My site, says that Total benefits paid for by taxpayers in New Jersey are astonishingly low, compared to neighboring states.

Another reason my methodology is superior, is that not only is your site lumping together counties and states; cherry-picking only ONE kind of benefit (pensions); but I suspect they're lumpint together ALL state employees: classified state employees with non-classified state employees.

My methodology looked at TOTAL benefits (not just pensions), and looked at classified state employees - these are your vast majority of state employees: the grunts who do 99% of the work.

By lumping in non-classified employees, your adding highly paid political appointees, judges, university faculty, etc. These are highly skilled and paid state jobs, that can skew the perception of "per capita" benefits of your average state employee.

 

[Cypress]

I know quite a few teachers, and most of them have started off in the high $40s. I didn't mean to imply that the average was close to $60, just that after a few years, some of them are making close to $60K (for working 9 months).

I don't begrudge a new teacher in New Jersey a starting salary of, say 48 grand.

Like I said before, teachers go to school for at least six years, and have the equivalent of a bachelors degree and a graduate degree. And NJ is an expensive place: I doubt 48 grand is really all that much. But, you would know better than me, living there

 

[LadyT]

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/16085849.htm

"State and local government employees earn more than private-sector workers, mainly because the income of those working for private companies has eroded over the last few decades, a Rutgers University study found."

"Phil Kirschner, president of New Jersey Business and Industry Association, said it was unfair for taxpayers to pay for not only the higher salaries of government workers, but also "benefit packages far in excess of what private-sector workers" receive.

His group supports paring back some benefits, such as a legislative committee's proposal to raise the retirement age for state workers from 55 to 62."


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That's because they are making more than people in the private sector!

 

[LadyT]

I don't begrudge a new teacher in New Jersey a starting salary of, say 48 grand.

Like I said before, teachers go to school for at least six years, and have the equivalent of a bachelors degree and a graduate degree. And NJ is an expensive place: I doubt 48 grand is really all that much. But, you would know better than me, living there

Especially considering you've got to pay between 5 - 7K a year for taxes and over a grand for insurance.

 

[Cypress]

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/16085849.htm

"State and local government employees earn more than private-sector workers, mainly because the income of those working for private companies has eroded over the last few decades, a Rutgers University study found."

"Phil Kirschner, president of New Jersey Business and Industry Association, said it was unfair for taxpayers to pay for not only the higher salaries of government workers, but also "benefit packages far in excess of what private-sector workers" receive.

His group supports paring back some benefits, such as a legislative committee's proposal to raise the retirement age for state workers from 55 to 62."


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That's because they are making more than people in the private sector!

president of New Jersey Business and Industry Association

LOL.
What'd you expect him to say? This is clearly an anti-government, low taxes, Chamber of Commerce-type group.

I'll look at the raw data myself, and come to my own conclusion. From what I found on my own, classified state employees in New Jersey (the ones who likely comprise 95% of the public workforce) are getting very frugal benefits, compared to New York, Conn, Delaware, and Pennsylvania.

I win

 

[uscitizen]

Perhaps NJ is just spending their money on the wrong stuff ?

remember the govt motto:
A waste is a terrible thing to mind.

 

[LadyT]

I'll look at the raw data myself, and come to my own conclusion. From what I found on my own, classified state employees in New Jersey (the ones who likely comprise 95% of the public workforce) are getting very frugal benefits, compared to New York, Conn, Delaware, and Pennsylvania.

I win
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Uh not so fast. My premise was relative to other private workers IN JERSEY. The tangent you went on doesn't negate the fact that:

"Government health benefits are the envy of private-sector workers in New Jersey."

 

[uscitizen]

So the real issue is health care benefits, not overall benefits ?

 

[Cypress]

I'll look at the raw data myself, and come to my own conclusion. From what I found on my own, classified state employees in New Jersey (the ones who likely comprise 95% of the public workforce) are getting very frugal benefits, compared to New York, Conn, Delaware, and Pennsylvania.

I win
----------------------------------------------------

Uh not so fast. My premise was relative to other private workers IN JERSEY. The tangent you went on doesn't negate the fact that:

"Government health benefits are the envy of private-sector workers in New Jersey."

Well, here's what I would do. But, this is just me:

Rather than try to tear down other workers for their benefits, I would encourage collective bargaining for employees who feel their corporation is screwing them. On balance, unions and collective bargaining are great for employess - either in the public or the private sector. The raw data proving it is unambiguous.

And I would elect political leaders, that will put an end to phony "globablization" policies that drive american jobs overseas, make our wages stagnant, and stop the corporate raid on pensions.

And get us single-payer health care, so that the burden of of companies having to provide health care to retirees and current employees is lifted.

Now, I agree with you, that the State should always use taxpayer money wisely. And if there's evidence that some state benefits are excessive, or not in the interest of the state, the State should reform, or renegotiate with public unions.

but, the raw data I found, suggests that state workers in New Jersey are actually a good deal for taxpayers (in terms of benefits) compared to all your surrounding neighboring states.

 

[uscitizen]

The globalization this is too far in process, the result of lower living standards in the USA is inevitable. Just give it time

 

[Cypress]

The globalization this is too far in process, the result of lower living standards in the USA is inevitable. Just give it time

I don't think we have to give up.

I'm sure that there are some, who would love workers to give up. But, I don't think the middle class has to accept phony, "free" trade and globablization policies.

 

[LadyT]

So the real issue is health care benefits, not overall benefits ?

any benefit that the private doesn't have yet they are footing the bill for. State, County and city wise.

 

[uscitizen]

I don't think we have to give up.

I'm sure that there are some, who would love workers to give up. But, I don't think the middle class has to accept phony, "free" trade and globablization policies.

Hell cypress! we are the biggest buyers into the scheme. Without us buying up all kinds of inmported stuff this would not be a problem in the first place. WE brought this on ourselves with our shortsighted greed.
We WILL pay too.

 

[uscitizen]

LadyT,
I tend to set my sights a bit higher.
Why should a guy serve as a congressman for a few years and get a nice pension and lifetime healthcare for that few years fo well paid service ?

 

[LadyT]

LadyT,
I tend to set my sights a bit higher.
Why should a guy serve as a congressman for a few years and get a nice pension and lifetime healthcare for that few years fo well paid service ?

This where a cash balance plan is nice. You're pension benefits should be linked to your # of years of service. 2 years of service Maybe 2/30 x Full Pension Benefit = Retirement benefits. Or however you want to weight it. I agree though. You shouldn't get full benefits for one or two terms in office. Heck, I may run if that's the case.

 

[LadyT]

but, the raw data I found, suggests that state workers in New Jersey are actually a good deal for taxpayers (in terms of benefits) compared to all your surrounding neighboring states.

No you didn't. Relative to other New Jerseryans public workers (state and county and local) have substantially more benefits then tax payers have. Its fundamentally unfair to ask them to foot the bill for benefits (that are increasing no less) that they are losing. I'm not suggesting the state take away benefits from people that have been promised, but certainly curtailing new employees would help.

 

[Cypress]

No you didn't. Relative to other New Jerseryans public workers (state and county and local) have substantially more benefits then tax payers have. Its fundamentally unfair to ask them to foot the bill for benefits (that are increasing no less) that they are losing. I'm not suggesting the state take away benefits from people that have been promised, but certainly curtailing new employees would help.

Fair enough.

I guess we were talking past each other. I assumed the argument was about fiscal responsibily (i.e., is NJ overpaying for state employee benefits? Answer: NO, they are very frugal compared to neighboring state governments, according to the raw data.)


I guess your argument, is more on the emotional level: state employees shouldn't have more benefits than someone in a private company. I can understand that. Its frustrating when private companies cut or ditch benefits.

 

[uscitizen]

I think her argument is logical, why should the employees of the taxpayers have better benefits than those who pay them ?

 

[LadyT]

I guess your argument, is more on the emotional level: state employees shouldn't have more benefits than someone in a private company. I can understand that. Its frustrating when private companies cut or ditch benefits.

Emotional? Don't even try it.

NJ is entering a budget crisis - period. Like the article I originally posted said, at the current rate, 1/5 of the budget will have to go to retired employees benefits. That's also confirmed here. Like it or not, public pension benefits are weighing down the budget. The same benefits that taxpayers are losing. Coupled with the fact that public workers ARE ACTUALLY MAKING MORE money than private workers, I don't think it takes a genius to realize that something has to give.

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061011/SPECIAL02/110110002

 

[uscitizen]

And trying to cut taxes ?? While in a budget crisis, does not seem too smart to me.