Philosphy, free will, and the absence of Religious authority

Cypress said:
I am taking the Oxford, Merriam-Webster, Webster's, Cambridge definitions of democracy over the opinions of anonymous and obscure message board posters.

Representative democracy is one type - and by far the most prevalent type - of democracy in human history.

The opinions of obscure message board posters notwithstanding.

I do not recall ever in my life a liberal, let alone a Democratic politician, say that this nation needs to be governed by direct democratic rule via direct participation by citizenry.
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Me neither...and I am not a liberal.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Me neither...and I am not a liberal.
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Cheers mate.

Getting back to Socrates and Plato....

Any attempt by the rightwing to assert Plato was against the form of representative democracy found in the U.S. , Britain, western Europe, et al. is sloppy and misinformed reasoning.

If anything can be said about Plato and Socrates, it is their eternal hostility to misinformed reasoning, obfuscation, and any attempt to subvert the truth.

The type of democracy Plato held in low esteem, was direct democratic rule where citizens participate directly in decision making. He thought this leads to the tyranny of the majority, and he has much justification to think so. Red states routinely voted down marriage equality at the ballot box, and if we left it up to southern states by popular vote, Jim Crow laws would still be on the books.

Plato did not have experience with, nor directed his comments towards the representative democracies that only came to flourish in the 19th, 20th, and 21st. If anything, Plato might have held out the constitutional monarchies of western Europe as an acceptable form of representative democratic government, because they might be nominally akin to his ideal of the benign and virtuous philosopher king.
 
evince said:
so now you hate dictionaries?
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Dictionaries do not define words. No dictionary is an authoritative reference of any word. No dictionary owns any word. They are useful for standardizing spelling and pronunciation, and they do have examples of how a word is used, but they do not define any word.

A republic is government by constitution. In other words, government by laws not of men. This definition goes all the way back to ancient Rome.
A democracy has no constitution. It is mob rule. It quickly dissolves into an oligarchy or an outright dictatorship. This definition goes all the way back to ancient Greece. It was one of the biggest problems with certain towns in ancient Greece.
 
Cypress said:
Cheers mate.

Getting back to Socrates and Plato....

Any attempt by the rightwing to assert Plato was against the form of representative democracy found in the U.S. , Britain, western Europe, et al. is sloppy and misinformed reasoning.

If anything can be said about Plato and Socrates, it is their eternal hostility to misinformed reasoning, obfuscation, and any attempt to subvert the truth.

The type of democracy Plato held in low esteem, was direct democratic rule where citizens participate directly in decision making. He thought this leads to the tyranny of the majority, and he has much justification to think so. Red states routinely voted down marriage equality at the ballot box, and if we left it up to southern states by popular vote, Jim Crow laws would still be on the books.

Plato did not have experience with, nor directed his comments towards the representative democracies that only came to flourish in the 19th, 20th, and 21st. If anything, Plato might have held out the constitutional monarchies of western Europe as an acceptable form of representative democratic government, because they might be nominally akin to his ideal of the benign and virtuous philosopher king.
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Stop right now. No one in this thread ever asserted that any Ancient Greek was against modern day Democracy except for Evince. Logic tells us that Socrates couldn't have been against modern day Democracy...how could he have been?
 
evince said:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/republic


republic noun

re·pub·lic | \ ri-ˈpə-blik


\
Definition of republic
1
a
(1)
: a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president
(2)
: a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
b
(1)
: a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
(2)
: a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
c
: a usually specified republican government of a political unit
the French Fourth Republic
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and that
 
evince said:
Types of democracy include:
Anticipatory democracy – relies on some degree of disciplined and usually market-informed anticipation of the future, to guide major decisions.
Associationalism, or Associative Democracy – emphasis on freedom via voluntary and democratically self-governing associations.
Adversialism, or Adversial Democracy – with an emphasis on freedom based on adversial relationships between individuals and groups as best expressed in democratic judicial systems.
Bourgeois democracy – Some Marxists, Communists, Socialists and Left-wing anarchists refer to liberal democracy as bourgeois democracy, alleging that ultimately politicians fight only for the rights of the bourgeoisie.
Consensus democracy – rule based on consensus rather than traditional majority rule.
Constitutional democracy – governed by a constitution.
Delegative democracy – a form of democratic control whereby voting power is vested in self-selected delegates, rather than elected representatives.
Deliberative democracy – in which authentic deliberation, not only voting, is central to legitimate decision making. It adopts elements of both consensus decision-making and majority rule.
Democratic centralism – organizational method where members of a political party discuss and debate matters of policy and direction and after the decision is made by majority vote, all members are expected to follow that decision in public.
Democratic dictatorship (also known as democratur)
Democratic republic – republic which has democracy through elected representatives
Democratic socialism – a form of socialism ideologically opposed to the Marxist–Leninist styles that have become synonymous with socialism; democratic socialists place an emphasis on decentralized governance in political democracy with social ownership of the means of production and social and economic institutions with workers' self-management.
Economic democracy – theory of democracy involving people having access to subsistence, or equity in living standards.
Grassroots democracy – emphasizes trust in small decentralized units at the municipal government level, possibly using urban secession to establish the formal legal authority to make decisions made at this local level binding.
Guided democracy – is a form of democratic government with increased autocracy where citizens exercise their political rights without meaningfully affecting the government's policies, motives, and goals.
Interactive democracy – proposed form of democracy utilising information technology to allow citizens to propose new policies, "second" proposals and vote on the resulting laws (that are refined by Parliament) in a referendum.
Jeffersonian democracy – named after American statesman Thomas Jefferson, who believed in equality of political opportunity (for male citizens), and opposed to privilege, aristocracy and corruption.
Market democracy – another name for democratic capitalism, an economic ideology based on a tripartite arrangement of a market-based economy based predominantly on economic incentives through free markets, a democratic polity and a liberal moral-cultural system which encourages pluralism.
Multiparty democracy – two-party system requires voters to align themselves in large blocs, sometimes so large that they cannot agree on any overarching principles.
New Democracy – Maoist concept based on Mao Zedong's "Bloc of Four Classes" theory in post-revolutionary China.
Participatory democracy – involves more lay citizen participation in decision making and offers greater political representation than traditional representative democracy, e.g., wider control of proxies given to representatives by those who get directly involved and actually participate.
People's democracy – multi-class rule in which the proletariat dominates.
Radical democracy – type of democracy that focuses on the importance of nurturing and tolerating difference and dissent in decision-making processes.
Revolutionary democracy – ideology of the Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front
Semi-direct democracy – representative democracy with instruments, elements, and/or features of direct democracy.
Sociocracy – democratic system of governance based on consent decision making, circle organization, and double-linked representation.
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Doublespeak.

A republic is government by constitution. That constitution defines the election process, including how any representative or officer of that government is elected.

There is no such thing as a 'democratic republic'.
 
evince said:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/republic


republic noun

re·pub·lic | \ ri-ˈpə-blik


\
Definition of republic
1
a
(1)
: a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president
(2)
: a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
b
(1)
: a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
(2)
: a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
c
: a usually specified republican government of a political unit
the French Fourth Republic
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Dictionaries do not define words.
 
Frank Apisa said:
You are "right on", Cypress.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with representative democracy (as opposed to direct democratic rule)...

...PROVIDING THE ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES ARE ABLE AND WILLING TO RULE...TO GOVERN.

Right now the Republican Party has shown itself unwilling (and functionally, unable) to govern.

The Republican Party has more control of government right now than any party has ever had control during my 82 years. And in a political environment as defined and separated as ever I've seen.

But they cannot get anything done. They step all over themselves...dig huge holes for themselves...paint themselves into corners. With almost total control of government in EVERY sphere...national, state, even local...all they do is cry that a pathetically small minority is thwarting their efforts.

THEY ARE THWARTING THEMSELVES BECAUSE OF MASSIVE INCOMPETENCE.

We need a governing body that works effectively to govern...with potential excesses held in check by what commonly is known as "the loyal opposition."

The Republican Party seems to function adequately as the latter...with almost no aptitude for the former.

The implications are clear...except to the sheep continuing to perpetuate what is going on right now.
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A representative democracy has no constitution. There is nothing to stop mob rule.

The United States is organized as a federated republic. It is has a constitution. It is federated. That means it layers of constitutions.
 
evince said:
its you redefining things idiot


you are merely some internets poster who is full of right wing memes




you don't get to make up facts in the face of reality
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A fact is not a Universal Truth. Learn what a 'fact' is. The term 'republic' goes all the way back to ancient Rome. It is government by constitution. Nothing more.
 
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