Rape: Do victims of rape share any responsibility?

[Cancel 2018. 3]

That's a load off my mind Yurt. I thought you were complimenting my shoes.

yawn

 

[christiefan915]

Seriously, you need "two sides" of rape presented to you? The rapist is the criminal, period.

The guy who robs the drunk male with 100 dollar bills hanging out of his pocket is the only criminal in that scenario. Same thing with rape.

I have often jested that the MSM fetishization of "both sides of the story" would eventually lead to a "Hitler; the other side of the story" report. But it hasn't. I guess we drew the line after rape. Not before rape. But after. Because you know, there's another side to that story.

I think if Tom and SD's posts had been posted by Dominator your reaction would be very different. Frankly, your reaction was very different. I think that when it comes to some issues, rape being one of the, it's good to respond to the point being made, not the poster making it. That is what I strive to do, and I will keep doing it. I don't care whose feathers get ruffled or how many weepy PM's Tom sends defending the animal things he says about rape. Frankly anyone who would leave a woman alone with that guy, needs a head check up.

I've tried to stay out of the animosity between you and Tom and I've said that privately to both of you. I don't like how either of you talk to and about each other. I don't like how he brings up crap and name-calling from the past to insult you, and I don't like how you call him a rapist and a misogynist. I don't know why you two can't just put each other on ignore and be done with it. I refuse to get drawn into taking sides here. I just walked away from a "cunt" battle with DY and USF and I'm deathly sick and tired of it all.

Furthermore, if Tom's sending any weepy PMs they're not to me because he and I haven't communicated privately for months.

 

[Cancel 2016.11]

Who decides what's more egregious? The most egregious thing I've read here is that it doesn't matter how many babies are martyred for the Second Amendment and that opinion didn't get anywhere near the anger this thread got. You made some pointed comments about people giving SD a pass for his opinion because he's black, maybe I was included in the people, but that was 100% unfair. I for one don't give anyone's comments a pass based on their race if I don't agree with them. And, I certainly don't understand why you think I have a strange way of looking at rape. I think and have always thought rape is a crime and nothing justifies it, not clothing, not drunkenness, not being out at night on the wrong side of town, not Andrea Dworkin, nothing. Do I think there's been a woman or two who falsely cried "rape", yes obviously, but not anywhere near the number of times real rape occurs. This isn't opinion, it's fact. But I still reserve all my animosity for real rape victims.

I feel your post is about the fact that I don't jump on Tom for his opinions. Both you and Tom know I don't agree with everything he says on this subject. When I read Tom's articles and cites I can't relate to them because it's not the experience here, at least where I live. It seems to me that British feminists are still fighting a battle that we in the US have already settled and relegated to the past.

Tom and I went back and forth on this just a few months ago when he posted about British girls binge drinking and acting like men, and these actions were given a special term which I can't remember now. In response I posted info showing that here both genders binge drink and act out, both genders are condemned for this behaviour, and women aren't singled out for special disdain like they are in the UK. I see a sexist cultural difference in the way binge drinking etc. is treated in the UK media v. the US media.

Finally you're going to have to give me an example of not jumping on liberal men, unless you're only talking about Tom. For the record I don't think Tom's liberal in the sense we use here.

As far as SD goes, no I wasn't talking about you or anyone in particular.

I think when even most men here have made comments about Tom's rape views, it becomes clear what and who is most egregious. I feel that his comments are so beyond the pale, repeatedly so, and have denigrated more and more to the point where he is an offense to any decent person. His comments about a 13 yo girl obviously stand out, yet, within his body of rape work, they really don't stand out. That's the amazing thing.

I think this thread is a good example Christie. I think SD's comments here, and in his last two threads about women are really alarming. I let his other threads go without comment, but this one was so over the top, I did comment. I think if you take any of his comments on this thread, and put them under any righty's name, you would be all over them. I am not just talking about TOm, Tom is the most obvious one yes. I really couldn't believe it when I saw you make that comment to Superfreak about his stupid joke, when the things posted on this thread are just jaw-dropping. But then you said you were kidding, so okay, I guess I didn't get that and I misread it. It really shocked me after this thread. I really don't want to go through every post on this thread again. The first day this thread went up I didn't sleep that night, and made the decision to IA the JPP rape club. But if I have to then I will go through them again.

It's not okay IMO to have these "discussions" and act like they're not harmful. This thread is harmful. In the year 2014 discussing whether the way a woman dresses or where she goes or how much she drinks makes her partially or fully or some random percentage from some rape formula "responsible" for her rape, is harmful.

It's harmful to the college girl who will drink tomorrow night, just like EVERY COLLEGE MAN IN THIS COUNTRY, and get passed around and raped by three frat boys, and called a whore the next day, become too ashamed to report it, and live a very traumatized life, if she doesn't commit suicide. It's not okay. It's like saying, if a black guy is in a town he knows to have a high percentage of racist people, is he at least partially to blame if he's hanged? There are some things that just don't have another side. They just don't have another side. It's not okay. It harms people. The underdog in our society is not the accused rapist - it's the victim. And this hate posting by Tom advocates the exact opposite. And it hurts people. It causes damage. Because it is widespread. He can't spread it in front of me. I know that's shrill. I am shrill. I don't care if I stand alone, but I think it says something very frightening to me about our culture if I do.

I am glad that SD apologized and it's good to know he doesn't have to grow into another Tom. Because TOm is a monster. And he is not alone. There are Tom's all over the internet.

 

[Cancel 2016.11]

I've tried to stay out of the animosity between you and Tom and I've said that privately to both of you. I don't like how either of you talk to and about each other. I don't like how he brings up crap and name-calling from the past to insult you, and I don't like how you call him a rapist and a misogynist. I don't know why you two can't just put each other on ignore and be done with it. I refuse to get drawn into taking sides here. I just walked away from a "cunt" battle with DY and USF and I'm deathly sick and tired of it all.

Furthermore, if Tom's sending any weepy PMs they're not to me because he and I haven't communicated privately for months.

You don't like that I call him a misogynist? Frankly if you can read his posts and think he's NOT a misogynist, you have blinders on.

False equivalence.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Major logical fallacy here Tom. By proxy, and according to your reference if I was to get wasted and someone was to beat the hell out of me and rob me then it's my fault cause I'm drunk? That's a masked man fallacy. In the actions listed by the author while drunk all the action, except the sexual assault, all were criminal acts for which a person should rightfully be prosecuted but in the case of an incapacitated woman being raped, she is the victim of a crime and not the perpetrator. The authors argument completely falls apart on that point.

Did you tell him that you wanted him to be the crap out of him?
Were you being aggressive towards him and challenging him?
You left a lot out of your attempt to correlate the two situations.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

I know I'm a fucking idiot that couldn't start a fire, if I had matches, tinder, wood, and instructions with pictures.

I know.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Women have a right to be in public with attractive clothing on, you do not have a right to wave a loaded gun at a police officer.

He wasn't talking about women, in the post I responded to; or did you miss that when your knee started jerking?

Here you go.
I've brought his comment forward and highlighted and enlarged the parts you missed.

This is not to be an answer to rape but to determine whether or not there is some partial responsibility. I live in Los Angeles where it is known as the epicenter and originator of Bloods and Crips. If I know that these particular gangs operate based on colors and MLB hat logos yet I continue to wear opposing colors (along with the signature hats) and I'm accosted, who is responsible?

I'm glad that I was able to help.

 

[christiefan915]

You don't like that I call him a misogynist? Frankly if you can read his posts and think he's NOT a misogynist, you have blinders on.

False equivalence.

Well if you want me to choose which is the worse term it would be "rapist." Because I don't see any evidence of that from the posts.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

I apologized because what I said was offensive. If I felt it wasn't I wouldn't have.

They you might not want to start or comment on:
1-Politics
2-Anything that has to do with Women
3-Anything that has to do with Men
4-cats
5-dogs
6-

On second thought, it would be better to just not state any kind of opinion; because if Darla/Dante's doesn't agree with it, it's going to be offensive.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Apology accepted, thank you for offering one, it's rare for someone to be classy enough to do that on the internet.

How about you trying it and offering him one, for you going all postal and misreading what he was presenting.

OH-WAIT; I forgot.
Darla never apologizes; because in her world, she's always correct.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Who decides what's more egregious? The most egregious thing I've read here is that it doesn't matter how many babies are martyred for the Second Amendment and that opinion didn't get anywhere near the anger this thread got. You made some pointed comments about people giving SD a pass for his opinion because he's black, maybe I was included in the people, but that was 100% unfair. I for one don't give anyone's comments a pass based on their race if I don't agree with them. And, I certainly don't understand why you think I have a strange way of looking at rape. I think and have always thought rape is a crime and nothing justifies it, not clothing, not drunkenness, not being out at night on the wrong side of town, not Andrea Dworkin, nothing. Do I think there's been a woman or two who falsely cried "rape", yes obviously, but not anywhere near the number of times real rape occurs. This isn't opinion, it's fact. But I still reserve all my animosity for real rape victims.

I feel your post is about the fact that I don't jump on Tom for his opinions. Both you and Tom know I don't agree with everything he says on this subject. When I read Tom's articles and cites I can't relate to them because it's not the experience here, at least where I live. It seems to me that British feminists are still fighting a battle that we in the US have already settled and relegated to the past.

Tom and I went back and forth on this just a few months ago when he posted about British girls binge drinking and acting like men, and these actions were given a special term which I can't remember now. In response I posted info showing that here both genders binge drink and act out, both genders are condemned for this behaviour, and women aren't singled out for special disdain like they are in the UK. I see a sexist cultural difference in the way binge drinking etc. is treated in the UK media v. the US media.

Finally you're going to have to give me an example of not jumping on liberal men, unless you're only talking about Tom. For the record I don't think Tom's liberal in the sense we use here.

I don't know how many times I've said this but I will reiterate it yet again. For all the self congratulatory behaviour of US feminists, it is a fact that both the legalisation of homosexuality and abortion happened here first in 1967, years before the US, and both parliamentary bills were proposed and implemented by white men. I doubt that any gender studies course in the US would ever highlight that fact.

We used to pride ourselves that we weren't as straightlaced and puritanical as you Americans but the recent court cases in the wake of Jimmy Savile has caused many to think that we have gone completely mad. In the US these cases wouldn't even be prosecuted as there is a statute of limitations. Take the case of William Roach, the Coronation Street actor, the charges against him go back to the '60s for fuck's sake, the oldest in 1965. I seriously think that we are going through an era of rape hysteria in the US and now in the UK. Funnily enough, for the most part, this doesn't seem to be the case in Europe, are they more primitive or are they less buttoned up and not so bloody hysterical?

There is most definitely a ladette culture over here, fuelled by cheap supermarket booze and happy hours in bars and clubs. I don't expect you to accept everything I say but you are at least able to be receptive to other viewpoints.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Before it gets locked I wanted you to know I don't have a problem with the thread. I looked at it as a survey of attitudes where people got a chance to speak about their thoughts of rape, why it occurs, what contributes to it, etc., sorta like the JPP version of a CDC poll. I've said this about other hot button issues, that I'd rather see people show themselves because it spares me the effort of trying to figure out where they're really coming from. I also don't think you're a rape apologist for taking the position of devil's advocate. What would be the point of debate and discussion if only one side was presented? I'm just sorry your thread deteriorated the way it did because I know your intentions were good when you started it.

I couldn't possibly disagree with you anymore than I do. I also think you have a very strange way of looking at rape and how men speak about it. For the life of me I can't figure out why you jump on every righty who says things far less egregious than some liberal men do while giving them a pass. I want to be clear about that, since I feel your post is about my reaction. Which. I. Stand. By.

OH-OH

 

[Cancel 2016.11]

Well if you want me to choose which is the worse term it would be "rapist." Because I don't see any evidence of that from the posts.

I disagree...his frantic apologizing for literally any rapist (even Polanski! the rapist of a 13 yo whom he drugged first) tells the story. IMO men who would never rape simply don't say those kind of things. There's a reason Tom is I believe the only man on this board who defends Polanski. And every other rapist ever mentioned.

A difference of opinion there, and one I'm aware of from previous things you've said. It hasn't changed my mind any more than I expect to change yours. Nor am I eager to have a protracted argument. But I feel this is something that needed to be cleared up. Because this bs has been driving me crazy, and yeah, I've been making pointed remarks. I've long believed one lousy word from you about the absolutely mind-boggling shit Tom posts about rape and rape victims, might shut him up for once. I guess I will never understand why you just won't do it. I've had guys like Grind say they cant freaking believe what Tom posted about rape. And I know you've seen and ignored and responded around rather than to, those same comments. I just can't get my mind around it. If you want to instead be upset about my calling him a rapist, that's okay Christie, like I said I don't want a big fight. But to my mind, that's fucked up. And it always be.

And if it posts like a rapist, if it talks like a rapist, it will always be a rapist to me. Why take any chances. If someone talked about cutting someone all the time, and about how people who get cut in alleys whine too much and probably enjoyed it and wanted it, I doubt you'd want to be alone with them and a knife. I'd have to agree.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Well if you want me to choose which is the worse term it would be "rapist." Because I don't see any evidence of that from the posts.

The salient point is that she jumped to that conclusion almost immediately without any evidence whatsoever. All because I had the temerity to say that I knew somebody that was the subject of false rape allegations, apparently things have got so bad now that a woman needs only to declare rape and that's enough to convict. Well call me old fashioned but I like to believe in due process and a fair trial. Darla et al are no different to the hysterical mobs in the French Revolution, I truly fear for democracy and jurisprudence with people like her in positions of power. GIve her a machete and would she be any different to a Hutu with a bloodlust in Rwanda?

 

[cancel2 2022]

I disagree...his frantic apologizing for literally any rapist (even Polanski! the rapist of a 13 yo whom he drugged first) tells the story. IMO men who would never rape simply don't say those kind of things. There's a reason Tom is I believe the only man on this board who defends Polanski. And every other rapist ever mentioned.

A difference of opinion there, and one I'm aware of from previous things you've said. It hasn't changed my mind any more than I expect to change yours. Nor am I eager to have a protracted argument. But I feel this is something that needed to be cleared up. Because this bs has been driving me crazy, and yeah, I've been making pointed remarks. I've long believed one lousy word from you about the absolutely mind-boggling shit Tom posts about rape and rape victims, might shut him up for once. I guess I will never understand why you just won't do it. I've had guys like Grind say they cant freaking believe what Tom posted about rape. And I know you've seen and ignored and responded around rather than to, those same comments. I just can't get my mind around it. If you want to instead be upset about my calling him a rapist, that's okay Christie, like I said I don't want a big fight. But to my mind, that's fucked up. And it always be.

And if it posts like a rapist, if it talks like a rapist, it will always be a rapist to me. Why take any chances. If someone talked about cutting someone all the time, and about how people who get cut in alleys whine too much and probably enjoyed it and wanted it, I doubt you'd want to be alone with them and a knife. I'd have to agree.

Why shouldn't I defend Roman Polanski? I have never said that what he did was anything other than wrong but excuse me for having the temerity to point out that he was offered a deal and the prosecutor reneged on it. I don't blame him for running as he was potentially looking at decades in prison. I also pointed out that Samantha Geimer, in response to someone that tried to portray her as totally innocent sexually, had already had sex at the age of twelve. That is not normal even today and it definitely wasn't nearly forty years ago, I never said that she deserved to be raped, that is something that you and that cunt you call a friend conjured up. I would like to know why you've never asked why a thirteen year old is allowed to go to someone's Hollywood mansion unchaperoned, so where was her mother? I suppose the feminist diktat that a woman can do as she please also applies here also, as least as far as you are concerned. I see the current phase in the US as akin to the McCarthyite fifties, where reds were seen everywhere, it is a form of collective hysteria which will be seen as such in the future.


As for Grind, fuck him is what I say, he lost all credibility with his remarks about babies being shot in their thousands so that he could protect his right to pack some heat and his adopting the name of Adam Lanza just because he thought it was fun. So excuse me if I say to you, fuck you thricely.

 

[christiefan915]

I disagree...his frantic apologizing for literally any rapist (even Polanski! the rapist of a 13 yo whom he drugged first) tells the story. IMO men who would never rape simply don't say those kind of things. There's a reason Tom is I believe the only man on this board who defends Polanski. And every other rapist ever mentioned.

A difference of opinion there, and one I'm aware of from previous things you've said. It hasn't changed my mind any more than I expect to change yours. Nor am I eager to have a protracted argument. But I feel this is something that needed to be cleared up. Because this bs has been driving me crazy, and yeah, I've been making pointed remarks. I've long believed one lousy word from you about the absolutely mind-boggling shit Tom posts about rape and rape victims, might shut him up for once. I guess I will never understand why you just won't do it. I've had guys like Grind say they cant freaking believe what Tom posted about rape. And I know you've seen and ignored and responded around rather than to, those same comments. I just can't get my mind around it. If you want to instead be upset about my calling him a rapist, that's okay Christie, like I said I don't want a big fight. But to my mind, that's fucked up. And it always be.

And if it posts like a rapist, if it talks like a rapist, it will always be a rapist to me. Why take any chances. If someone talked about cutting someone all the time, and about how people who get cut in alleys whine too much and probably enjoyed it and wanted it, I doubt you'd want to be alone with them and a knife. I'd have to agree.

I'm pretty sure I responded on the Polanski thread but will have to pull it up and check. And as a pre-emptive strike, yes it is absolutely fucked up to say the 13-year old had any responsibility whatsoever for her rape, in fact I have to ask why the mother wasn't charged for a crime and the daughter taken from her.

For as much as you criticize me for not responding to Tom, let me remind you that I haven't jumped on you for your comments to him either. I've worked around your posts just as you've accused me of doing with Tom's. I've known him longer than you, have talked to him in the past via email, and have gotten to know him in more depth than just forum opinions. So I have a fuller picture of the man and of course all of that weighs into how I approach him here. And I'm curious as to why you think a word from me would get Tom or anybody to shut up or change their mind about their opinions. If I had that kind of power I would have shut up a lot of people in my five years on the board.

I don't care what Grind or the other guys think. I said it before, their comments about babies dying for the Second Amendment trumps everything else in my book. The crap about Adam Lanza, the pictures etc. were as ugly to me as the rape threads are to you. This doesn't mean I'm downplaying rape, just that you and I have different opinions on what's the worst of the worst. I still talk to Grind and Billy besides Tom, and try to navigate through the minefield of their conflicts and opinions that differ from mine.

You said "if it posts like a rapist, if it talks like a rapist, it will always be a rapist to me'', does that apply to the 2nd Amendment supporters and will those guys always be baby killers to you? Call me crazy but if I'm going to accuse somebody of a felony I want solid proof before making such an accusation.

 

[christiefan915]

Why shouldn't I defend Roman Polanski? I have never said that what he did was anything other than wrong but excuse me for having the temerity to point out that he was offered a deal and the prosecutor reneged on it. I don't blame him for running as he was potentially looking at decades in prison. I also pointed out that Samantha Geimer, in response to someone that tried to portray her as totally innocent sexually, that she had already had sex at the age of twelve. I never said that she deserved to be raped, that is something that you and that cunt you call a friend conjured up. I would like to know why you've never asked why a thirteen year old is allowed to go to someone's Hollywood mansion unchaperoned, so where was her mother? I suppose the feminist diktat that a woman can do as she please also applies here also, as least as far as you are concerned.

As for Grind, fuck him is what I say, he lost all credibility with his remarks about babies being shot in their thousands so that he could protect his right to pack some heat and his adopting the name of Adam Lanza just because he thought it was fun. So excuse me if I say to you, fuck you thricely.

I have zero respect for Polanski because he's a pedophile who got away with it. In my book he's no different from the priest, teachers, Scout leaders or any molester who got a slap on the wrist. He drugged Geimer with Quaaludes and got her drunk in order to make her compliant. As far as her having sex at age 12, her brain wasn't developed and she didn't have the physical and mental maturity to know what she was doing was wrong. Seems she grew up in a sexually-free household and her mother should have been tossed in prison with the key thrown away. And if the person she had sex with was an adult, it was another pedophile act and another crime.

I do agree with you on the shooting babies thing, I couldn't believe it when I first read it and even now I wonder if he wasn't just taking the piss.

 

[Phantasmal]

If Tom respects women, why does he continue to use the word cunt to insult? This shows a very distinct lack of respect, and although he doesn't respect Darla, he should respect christiefan and other women on this forum and stop the use of the word, but he doesn't care, because he doesn't respect.

 

[cancel2 2022]

I have zero respect for Polanski because he's a pedophile who got away with it. In my book he's no different from the priest, teachers, Scout leaders or any molester who got a slap on the wrist. He drugged Geimer with Quaaludes and got her drunk in order to make her compliant. As far as her having sex at age 12, her brain wasn't developed and she didn't have the physical and mental maturity to know what she was doing was wrong. Seems she grew up in a sexually-free household and her mother should have been tossed in prison with the key thrown away. And if the person she had sex with was an adult, it was another pedophile act and another crime.

I do agree with you on the shooting babies thing, I couldn't believe it when I first read it and even now I wonder if he wasn't just taking the piss.

Again, I will point out that what he did was wrong but her mother should have been culpable for allowing her to go there in the first place. The reason that Darla won't call her out is because she is incapable of apportioning blame to any other group than white men, that's why I find her to be so disgusting. I think that Polanski should have gone to jail for maybe a 3-5 stretch but it was manifestly obvious that the public prosecutor reneged and wanted him to serve decades which was totally wrong. I will also say again, for the umpteenth time, that Samantha Geimer has now become his biggest supporter and acolyte, so why shouldn't we respect her wishes and desires in this matter? If you want to say that women are able to make up their own minds then why won't people respect her wishes? What do they know, that she doesn't?

 

[cancel2 2022]

If Tom respects women, why does he continue to use the word cunt to insult? This shows a very distinct lack of respect, and although he doesn't respect Darla, he should respect christiefan and other women on this forum and stop the use of the word, but he doesn't care, because he doesn't respect.

I only use the word cunt for men and more particularly Prakosh, cunt is almost never used for women in the UK. I also call men pricks, dicks and wankers, does that mean I disrespect men generally? I also remember you saying, in the past, that it was only a word and you couldn't understand why people got so upset over it.