Reality check for TOP GUN fans.

[Taichiliberal]

As they say, the more you know.




When most of us think about “Top Gun,” we usually associate it with Tom Cruise’s character during the ’80s movie showcasing the Navy’s F-14 Tomcat exploits and over-the-top maneuvers. But in reality, it was a Tuskegee Airmen who took part and won the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition The United States Air Force held their “First Ever” Weapons Meet at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada on 2 May 1949. The famous 332nd Fighter Group Team, of Captain Alva Temple, 1st Lieutenant Harry Stewart, 1st Lieutenant James Harvey and alternate pilot 1st Lieutenant Halbert Alexander won the Competition. However, the 332nd Fighter Group was never recognized as the “Winner” until April 1995. Forty-Six years after winning the Weapons Meet.




https://taichicago.org/americas-first-top-guns/

 

[Hawkeye10]

If the F-35 gets into a dog fight then it is going to die.....the Top Gun school no longer has a reason to exist.

 

[Hawkeye10]

As they say, the more you know.




When most of us think about “Top Gun,” we usually associate it with Tom Cruise’s character during the ’80s movie showcasing the Navy’s F-14 Tomcat exploits and over-the-top maneuvers. But in reality, it was a Tuskegee Airmen who took part and won the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition The United States Air Force held their “First Ever” Weapons Meet at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada on 2 May 1949. The famous 332nd Fighter Group Team, of Captain Alva Temple, 1st Lieutenant Harry Stewart, 1st Lieutenant James Harvey and alternate pilot 1st Lieutenant Halbert Alexander won the Competition. However, the 332nd Fighter Group was never recognized as the “Winner” until April 1995. Forty-Six years after winning the Weapons Meet.




https://taichicago.org/americas-first-top-guns/

Fascinating.

 

[Street Glider]

The "Top Gun" of today is far different than anything you would've sen in 1949.

The constricts of the "Weapons Meet" were far less grueling than what Top Gun pilots put up with today...

 

[Taichiliberal]

The "Top Gun" of today is far different than anything you would've sen in 1949.

The constricts of the "Weapons Meet" were far less grueling than what Top Gun pilots put up with today...

The POINT of the OP is that when all this STARTED, black folk won a fair & square contest ... and folk of your mindset wouldn't give them their full credit due out of sheer racist spite.

Those who know NOTHING beyond their own birthdays ASSUMED that the movie was the full, valid history of TOP GUN as it implied. Fact is, it wasn't.

What you say here are essentially moot points that DO NOT alter the implications and FACTS of the OP one iota. Deal with it.

 

[McRocket]

As they say, the more you know.




When most of us think about “Top Gun,” we usually associate it with Tom Cruise’s character during the ’80s movie showcasing the Navy’s F-14 Tomcat exploits and over-the-top maneuvers. But in reality, it was a Tuskegee Airmen who took part and won the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition The United States Air Force held their “First Ever” Weapons Meet at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada on 2 May 1949. The famous 332nd Fighter Group Team, of Captain Alva Temple, 1st Lieutenant Harry Stewart, 1st Lieutenant James Harvey and alternate pilot 1st Lieutenant Halbert Alexander won the Competition. However, the 332nd Fighter Group was never recognized as the “Winner” until April 1995. Forty-Six years after winning the Weapons Meet.




https://taichicago.org/americas-first-top-guns/

You are getting things confused.

Top Gun in the movie refers to The United States Navy Fighter Weapons School.
It is not a competition per se.
But a school to teach pilots about air combat tactics.
And it was established in 1969.

It did not exist in 1949.
So I do not know what contest you are speaking of that this poor fellow did not get recognition for.
But it was NOT Top Gun that is referred to in the film of the same name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Strike_Fighter_Tactics_Instructor_program

 

[Taichiliberal]

When most of us think about “Top Gun,” we usually associate it with Tom Cruise’s character during the ’80s movie showcasing the Navy’s F-14 Tomcat exploits and over-the-top maneuvers. But in reality, it was a Tuskegee Airmen who took part and won the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition The United States Air Force held their “First Ever” Weapons Meet at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada on 2 May 1949. The famous 332nd Fighter Group Team, of Captain Alva Temple, 1st Lieutenant Harry Stewart, 1st Lieutenant James Harvey and alternate pilot 1st Lieutenant Halbert Alexander won the Competition. However, the 332nd Fighter Group was never recognized as the “Winner” until April 1995. Forty-Six years after winning the Weapons Meet.




https://taichicago.org/americas-first-top-guns/

You are getting things confused.

Top Gun in the movie refers to The United States Navy Fighter Weapons School.
It is not a competition per se.
But a school to teach pilots about air combat tactics.
And it was established in 1969.

It did not exist in 1949.
So I do not know what contest you are speaking of that this poor fellow did not get recognition for.
But it was NOT Top Gun that is referred to in the film of the same name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Strike_Fighter_Tactics_Instructor_program

No confusion on my part. I've highlighted parts of my previous post in order to show the reading audience where you are wrong. I would suggest you click the link and read the entire article.

 

[Commander Dutch]

The POINT of the OP is that when all this STARTED, black folk won a fair & square contest ... and folk of your mindset wouldn't give them their full credit due out of sheer racist spite.

Those who know NOTHING beyond their own birthdays ASSUMED that the movie was the full, valid history of TOP GUN as it implied. Fact is, it wasn't.

What you say here are essentially moot points that DO NOT alter the implications and FACTS of the OP one iota. Deal with it.

Anyone who thinks they are learning history from a Hollywood movie is a fucking moron who needs their HS diploma revoked.

Speaking of which, there are good movies about the Tuskegee Airmen.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114745/

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0485985/

 

[Commander Dutch]

No confusion on my part. I've highlighted parts of my previous post in order to show the reading audience where you are wrong. I would suggest you click the link and read the entire article.

Your blog link is wrong. Top Gun was started after the US got its tailfeathers waxed in Vietnam. McRocket is correct it's a school, not a competition like Red Flag.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2019/september/topgun-navys-first-center-excellence
The need for a program to hone Navy fighter tactics became clear in the early years of the Vietnam War. During those first years, the probability that a U.S. air-to-air missile would destroy its target was roughly 10 percent.1 A great deal of this could be attributed to poor missile reliability, but many missiles were launched out of their effectiveness envelope, which indicated a training problem. Rules of engagement that required visual identification before taking a shot made things worse all around.



U.S. Navy aircrews were flying the most modern fighters in the world—the F-4 Phantom II and F-8 Crusader—against a relatively primitive foe in the North Vietnamese air force, yet the Navy’s kill ratio was only 2.5:1. Kill ratio is a common yardstick of fighter performance; it indicates the number of enemy aircraft destroyed for each U.S. fighter lost. In World War II, which ended just 20 years before the air war in Vietnam started, the U.S. Navy’s kill ratio was 14:1. In the Korean War, American jets had a 12:1 kill ratio. Clearly, something had to be done.

 

[Street Glider]

The POINT of the OP is that when all this STARTED, black folk won a fair & square contest ... and folk of your mindset wouldn't give them their full credit due out of sheer racist spite.

You're mentally retarded, aren't you?

There's not a single thing in my post which is incorrect.

 

[Matt Dillon]

 

[McRocket]

No confusion on my part. I've highlighted parts of my previous post in order to show the reading audience where you are wrong. I would suggest you click the link and read the entire article.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

You typed: 'the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition'.

'Top Gun' is NOT a competition.
It is/was a school.

And the competition you speak of back in 1949 - from everything I can find - was NEVER (back then) called 'Top Gun'.

Again....you are comparing apples and oranges.
A school called 'Top Gun' to a gunnery competition that was (apparently) never called 'Top Gun'.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
No confusion on my part. I've highlighted parts of my previous post in order to show the reading audience where you are wrong. I would suggest you click the link and read the entire article.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

You typed: 'the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition'.

'Top Gun' is NOT a competition.
It is/was a school.

And the competition you speak of back in 1949 - from everything I can find - was NEVER (back then) called 'Top Gun'.

Again....you are comparing apples and oranges.
A school called 'Top Gun' to a gunnery competition that was (apparently) never called 'Top Gun'.

Okay, let's try this from another angle.

One: READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY: But in reality, it was a Tuskegee Airmen who took part and won the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition The United States Air Force held their “First Ever” Weapons Meet at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada on 2 May 1949. The famous 332nd Fighter Group Team, of Captain Alva Temple, 1st Lieutenant Harry Stewart, 1st Lieutenant James Harvey and alternate pilot 1st Lieutenant Halbert Alexander won the Competition. However, the 332nd Fighter Group was never recognized as the “Winner” until April 1995. Forty-Six years after winning the Weapons Meet.

This was a PRECURSOR to the TOP GUN school in dealing with aerial combat - which culminates in a competition, whether you acknowledge it or not. You can split the hair, but the root remains the same. Again, black folk were denied their place in American history for a LONG time. Deal with it.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Your blog link is wrong. Top Gun was started after the US got its tailfeathers waxed in Vietnam. McRocket is correct it's a school, not a competition like Red Flag.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2019/september/topgun-navys-first-center-excellence
The need for a program to hone Navy fighter tactics became clear in the early years of the Vietnam War. During those first years, the probability that a U.S. air-to-air missile would destroy its target was roughly 10 percent.1 A great deal of this could be attributed to poor missile reliability, but many missiles were launched out of their effectiveness envelope, which indicated a training problem. Rules of engagement that required visual identification before taking a shot made things worse all around.



U.S. Navy aircrews were flying the most modern fighters in the world—the F-4 Phantom II and F-8 Crusader—against a relatively primitive foe in the North Vietnamese air force, yet the Navy’s kill ratio was only 2.5:1. Kill ratio is a common yardstick of fighter performance; it indicates the number of enemy aircraft destroyed for each U.S. fighter lost. In World War II, which ended just 20 years before the air war in Vietnam started, the U.S. Navy’s kill ratio was 14:1. In the Korean War, American jets had a 12:1 kill ratio. Clearly, something had to be done.

Okay, let's try this from another angle.

One: READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY: But in reality, it was a Tuskegee Airmen who took part and won the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition The United States Air Force held their “First Ever” Weapons Meet at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada on 2 May 1949. The famous 332nd Fighter Group Team, of Captain Alva Temple, 1st Lieutenant Harry Stewart, 1st Lieutenant James Harvey and alternate pilot 1st Lieutenant Halbert Alexander won the Competition. However, the 332nd Fighter Group was never recognized as the “Winner” until April 1995. Forty-Six years after winning the Weapons Meet.


This was a PRECURSOR to the TOP GUN school & Red Flag in dealing with aerial combat - which culminates in a competition, whether you acknowledge it or not. You can split the hair, but the root remains the same. Again, black folk were denied their place in American history for a LONG time. Deal with it.

 

[Taichiliberal]

You're mentally retarded, aren't you?

There's not a single thing in my post which is incorrect.

Why don't you learn how to read carefully and comprehensively before your fingers hit the keys?

Here's what you've obviously missed. I've highlighted it for you:

The POINT of the OP is that when all this STARTED, black folk won a fair & square contest ... and folk of your mindset wouldn't give them their full credit due out of sheer racist spite.

Those who know NOTHING beyond their own birthdays ASSUMED that the movie was the full, valid history of TOP GUN as it implied. Fact is, it wasn't.

What you say here are essentially moot points that DO NOT alter the implications and FACTS of the OP one iota. Deal with it.

If you STILL don't get it, look up the word PRECURSOR and apply it to the OP. Beyond that, I can't help you. Good luck, bunky.

 

[Celticguy]

I get that you are painting this LV Meet as some sort of precursor to the Top Gun school and in a vague sense it kinda is but a meet is a competition while Top Gun is a by invitation program.

Good for the Tuskegee airmen who showed their prowess way back when but I think its a stretch to conflate the two.

 

[Celticguy]

By the way, Tuskegee guys were Army Air Corp. Top Gun is Navy.

 

[Taichiliberal]

I get that you are painting this LV Meet as some sort of precursor to the Top Gun school and in a vague sense it kinda is but a meet is a competition while Top Gun is a by invitation program.

Good for the Tuskegee airmen who showed their prowess way back when but I think its a stretch to conflate the two.

You can split that hair all you want, but the root is the same. It's called a "precursor", and like it or not aerial competition is the cumulation of academic and physical training. Setting the record clear is never a wrong doing.

 

[Taichiliberal]

By the way, Tuskegee guys were Army Air Corp. Top Gun is Navy.

And a plane is a plane is a plane. Hair splitting won't change the root.

 

[Street Glider]

Why don't you learn how to read carefully and comprehensively before your fingers hit the keys?

Here's what you've obviously missed. I've highlighted it for you:

The POINT of the OP is that when all this STARTED, black folk won a fair & square contest ... and folk of your mindset wouldn't give them their full credit due out of sheer racist spite.

Those who know NOTHING beyond their own birthdays ASSUMED that the movie was the full, valid history of TOP GUN as it implied. Fact is, it wasn't.

What you say here are essentially moot points that DO NOT alter the implications and FACTS of the OP one iota. Deal with it.

If you STILL don't get it, look up the word PRECURSOR and apply it to the OP. Beyond that, I can't help you. Good luck, bunky.

So, you're completely inept at showing where anything I said was incorrect.

Got it.

The movie was not, nor was it ever intended to be, a full historical narrative of Top Gun. Ergo, whining about that is stupid and ignorant but, damn, don't you do it so well...