Reality check for TOP GUN fans.

Taichiliberal said:
....This was a PRECURSOR to the TOP GUN school & Red Flag in dealing with aerial combat - which culminates in a competition, whether you acknowledge it or not. You can split the hair, but the root remains the same. Again, black folk were denied their place in American history for a LONG time. Deal with it.
Click to expand...
Nice try. Thanks for the patronizing backpedal.

Here's a hint: the American military began flying shortly after the Wright Brothers invented the fucking thing. Their first fatality? 1LT Thomas Selfridge....the PRECURSOR to all military aviation.

What is your point, Liberal, aside from twisting history?
 
Celticguy said:
and given they were not exactly funded in kind for training etc thats a pretty good showing.
Click to expand...

Actually, they got the same flight school training other USAAF pilots got at the time, no difference. About the only thing I can say they were slightly shafted by was they initially got the hand-me-downs in terms of aircraft when they arrived in the Mediterranean. Their first combat aircraft was the P-39, and they were the last group in the Med to operate it. They were then issued P-47 Thunderbolts, trading these in late 1944 for the P-51 Mustang.

In terms of missions and operations, the group was given the same ones other fighter groups got so there really wasn't any prejudice in terms of their combat operations.
 
Taichiliberal said:
:palm: Okay, let's try this from another angle.

One: READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY: But in reality, it was a Tuskegee Airmen who took part and won the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition The United States Air Force held their “First Ever” Weapons Meet at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada on 2 May 1949. The famous 332nd Fighter Group Team, of Captain Alva Temple, 1st Lieutenant Harry Stewart, 1st Lieutenant James Harvey and alternate pilot 1st Lieutenant Halbert Alexander won the Competition. However, the 332nd Fighter Group was never recognized as the “Winner” until April 1995. Forty-Six years after winning the Weapons Meet.

This was a PRECURSOR to the TOP GUN school in dealing with aerial combat - which culminates in a competition, whether you acknowledge it or not. You can split the hair, but the root remains the same. Again, black folk were denied their place in American history for a LONG time. Deal with it.
Click to expand...

1) I don't care about the 'root' in this case.
I care about accuracy/exactitude.

2) I see no link to ANY evidence that the 1949 competition was anything but that.
It was NOT a school that I have seen.

And there is no such thing as a 'Top Gun style competition'.
As 'Top Gun' - in this instance - STRICTLY refers to the he Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor program.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/vietnam-war/topgun-school-history.html?chrome=1

3) Top Gun is a NAVAL school.
What you are referring to is an Air Force competition.


You can argue about it forever.
The fact remains that the article you used is comparing apples and oranges.
The author was being very lazy in his writing.
 
Street Glider said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Why don't you learn how to read carefully and comprehensively before your fingers hit the keys?

Here's what you've obviously missed. I've highlighted it for you:

The POINT of the OP is that when all this STARTED, black folk won a fair & square contest ... and folk of your mindset wouldn't give them their full credit due out of sheer racist spite.

Those who know NOTHING beyond their own birthdays ASSUMED that the movie was the full, valid history of TOP GUN as it implied. Fact is, it wasn't.

What you say here are essentially moot points that DO NOT alter the implications and FACTS of the OP one iota. Deal with it.

If you STILL don't get it, look up the word PRECURSOR and apply it to the OP. Beyond that, I can't help you. Good luck, bunky.
Click to expand...




So, you're completely inept at showing where anything I said was incorrect.

Got it.

The movie was not, nor was it ever intended to be, a full historical narrative of Top Gun. Ergo, whining about that is stupid and ignorant but, damn, don't you do it so well...
Click to expand...

:palm: No one said that the movie was a historical narrative.....but people believe what they see, and with the subliminal jingoism in a Reagan era movie, most don't make the distinctions. Which is why the OP is so upsetting to jokers like you...more proof of this country's systemic racism that infects it historical record.

There you have it, dear readers. Another intellectually impotent MAGA minion who proudly glides down the street of insipidly stubborn stupidity.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
....This was a PRECURSOR to the TOP GUN school & Red Flag in dealing with aerial combat - which culminates in a competition, whether you acknowledge it or not. You can split the hair, but the root remains the same. Again, black folk were denied their place in American history for a LONG time. Deal with it.
Click to expand...


Nice try. Thanks for the patronizing backpedal.

Here's a hint: the American military began flying shortly after the Wright Brothers invented the fucking thing. Their first fatality? 1LT Thomas Selfridge....the PRECURSOR to all military aviation.

What is your point, Liberal, aside from twisting history?
Click to expand...

For some reason, this OP has struck some jingoistic nerve in you that results in irrational/illogical babbling.

That's the only explanation to how you are trying to label additional definition and clarification as "back pedaling".
Nothing I posted is inaccurate...that can be verified and you can't disprove or debunk it, so your final accusation is false.

Now I know you're not stupid and you can read, so you definitely understand the OP as well as my responses to those trying to misrepresent what is presented. All one has to do is have a high school G.E.D. and follow the chronology of the posts to see that.

What I don't understand is your using the same moronic tactics the MAGA minions are so fond of....juxtaposed moot points combined with some idiotic supposition and conjecture to make a comparison. C'mon Dutch, you can do better.
 
Taichiliberal said:
For some reason, this OP has struck some jingoistic nerve in you that results in irrational/illogical babbling.
Click to expand...

Disagreed. IMO, you're making a big deal out of nothing.

God bless all the Heroes who served our nation. Despite the racism of the times, God bless those who served in the 332nd Fighter Group and 477th Bombardment Group of the US Army Air Corps.

landscape_profile_Photo_courtesy_Kevin_Hong.jpg
 
McRocket said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Okay, let's try this from another angle.

One: READ CAREFULLY AND COMPREHENSIVELY: But in reality, it was a Tuskegee Airmen who took part and won the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition The United States Air Force held their “First Ever” Weapons Meet at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada on 2 May 1949. The famous 332nd Fighter Group Team, of Captain Alva Temple, 1st Lieutenant Harry Stewart, 1st Lieutenant James Harvey and alternate pilot 1st Lieutenant Halbert Alexander won the Competition. However, the 332nd Fighter Group was never recognized as the “Winner” until April 1995. Forty-Six years after winning the Weapons Meet.

This was a PRECURSOR to the TOP GUN school in dealing with aerial combat - which culminates in a competition, whether you acknowledge it or not. You can split the hair, but the root remains the same. Again, black folk were denied their place in American history for a LONG time. Deal with it.
Click to expand...


1) I don't care about the 'root' in this case.
I care about accuracy/exactitude.

2) I see no link to ANY evidence that the 1949 competition was anything but that.
It was NOT a school that I have seen.

And there is no such thing as a 'Top Gun style competition'.
As 'Top Gun' - in this instance - STRICTLY refers to the he Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor program.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/vietnam-war/topgun-school-history.html?chrome=1

3) Top Gun is a NAVAL school.
What you are referring to is an Air Force competition.


You can argue about it forever.
The fact remains that the article you used is comparing apples and oranges.
The author was being very lazy in his writing.
Click to expand...

1. Your first sentence is illogical and irrational. Accuracy in history is the point of the OP. The movie came out in the jingoistic Reagan era, and most people believe what they see in the movies that refer to real life/history. The OP just gives a little background that the majority of Americans (you and myself included) weren't aware of....background that was essentially hidden from the public. Any historian worth his salt will tell you that accurate history is a culmination of as much information as possible in order to understand the final fact...from roots to fruit, so to speak. That the OP disturbs you so much that you read into it what HAS NOT been said is most telling.

2. And since the information presented does NOT state or allude to the contest being a "school", you assertion is rendered flat in error. And PUH-LEEZE spare us all this bleat about "it's not a school". Bottom line: The schools are preparing pilots for practical application of what they learn....the "red flag" utilizes that learning. What the OP points out that the PRECURSOR to what is the final culmination of later schooling and competition was one by black pilots who denied their credit on the official record.

3. No kidding? Tell us something we don't know. Are you saying that all that knowledge and training and such is kept secret from other branches of the military? And since the NAVY didn't have such a competition at the time, it's a significant note in military aviation.

4. You can repeat your assertion until doomsday, but careful reading of the article tells the tale, and your lame attempt to diminish it's significance is pathetic.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
For some reason, this OP has struck some jingoistic nerve in you that results in irrational/illogical babbling.
Click to expand...



Disagreed. IMO, you're making a big deal out of nothing.

God bless all the Heroes who served our nation. Despite the racism of the times, God bless those who served in the 332nd Fighter Group and 477th Bombardment Group of the US Army Air Corps.

landscape_profile_Photo_courtesy_Kevin_Hong.jpg
Click to expand...

Your "opinion" is what it is....a disturbed retort regarding a historical fact that puts a new perspective on a highly popular piece of cinematic jingoistic fluff from the Reagan era that America has embraced as part of it's real history.

You're flag waving won't change the reality of the OP. Learn to deal with it....we have.
 
Taichiliberal said:
1. Your first sentence is illogical and irrational. Accuracy in history is the point of the OP. The movie came out in the jingoistic Reagan era, and most people believe what they see in the movies that refer to real life/history. The OP just gives a little background that the majority of Americans (you and myself included) weren't aware of....background that was essentially hidden from the public. Any historian worth his salt will tell you that accurate history is a culmination of as much information as possible in order to understand the final fact...from roots to fruit, so to speak. That the OP disturbs you so much that you read into it what HAS NOT been said is most telling.

2. And since the information presented does NOT state or allude to the contest being a "school", you assertion is rendered flat in error. And PUH-LEEZE spare us all this bleat about "it's not a school". Bottom line: The schools are preparing pilots for practical application of what they learn....the "red flag" utilizes that learning. What the OP points out that the PRECURSOR to what is the final culmination of later schooling and competition was one by black pilots who denied their credit on the official record.

3. No kidding? Tell us something we don't know. Are you saying that all that knowledge and training and such is kept secret from other branches of the military? And since the NAVY didn't have such a competition at the time, it's a significant note in military aviation.

4. You can repeat your assertion until doomsday, but careful reading of the article tells the tale, and your lame attempt to diminish it's significance is pathetic.
Click to expand...

robert-downey-jr-rolls-eyes.jpg


LIGHTEN THE 'F' UP!

I read little of your reply.

The lead in of the article you quoted was poorly written and erroneous.
And so is this thread - in terms of comparing what the guy you mention did and the Top Gun school.

The two are TOTALLY different.

Whether you like it or not.

Now, I don't care NEARLY enough about this subject to continue with your childish behavior over it.

Bye now.


Oh...some advice.
Stop making shit up.
You clearly did that at least 3 times during our 'discussion'.
It makes you look silly and/or unintelligent.

We ARE done here.
 
Last edited:
Taichiliberal said:
:palm: No one said that the movie was a historical narrative...
Click to expand...

Okay, good.

And... what?

Did someone claim that the Tom Cruise movie was historically accurate? And, if it's not, what's the problem anyway?

I've also watched the movies "Star Wars" and "Jurassic Park". I'm pretty sure neither of those were historically accurate, either...

but people believe what they see, and with the subliminal jingoism in a Reagan era movie, most don't make the distinctions.
Click to expand...

What distinction should've been made?

Which is why the OP is so upsetting to jokers like you...more proof of this country's systemic racism that infects it historical record.
Click to expand...

I'm not at all upset by the OP, and it's stupid for you to suggest that I am.

I watched and enjoyed a movie.

Nothing more, nothing less...

There you have it, dear readers. Another intellectually impotent MAGA minion who proudly glides down the street of insipidly stubborn stupidity.
Click to expand...


What an ignorant thing for you to belch up.

First off, find one post of mine, anywhere on the internet, in which I say I claim "MAGA" as some sort of personal guide, and I'll buy you a house. How it is that you're able to be so ignorant as to suggest that a political belief would preclude acknowledging historical fact is a mystery.

Second, the movie "Top Gun" was accurate in that the Navy's Fighter Weapons School (aka "Top Gun") is an actual thing which was depicted in the movie. As you say, the movie wasn't intended to be an historical narrative. Why, then, would you wet yourself over the fact that it wasn't?

Oh, and the Tuskegee Airmen weren't Navy, nor did they participate in any "Top Gun" competition. Saying that something is "Top Gun style" is akin to saying that a Volkswagen Beetle is a "Mercedes-Benz style" car because they're both German-made automobiles.

This would be a more enjoyable conversation if you didn't insist on approaching it so stupidly...
 
McRocket said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
1. Your first sentence is illogical and irrational. Accuracy in history is the point of the OP. The movie came out in the jingoistic Reagan era, and most people believe what they see in the movies that refer to real life/history. The OP just gives a little background that the majority of Americans (you and myself included) weren't aware of....background that was essentially hidden from the public. Any historian worth his salt will tell you that accurate history is a culmination of as much information as possible in order to understand the final fact...from roots to fruit, so to speak. That the OP disturbs you so much that you read into it what HAS NOT been said is most telling.

2. And since the information presented does NOT state or allude to the contest being a "school", you assertion is rendered flat in error. And PUH-LEEZE spare us all this bleat about "it's not a school". Bottom line: The schools are preparing pilots for practical application of what they learn....the "red flag" utilizes that learning. What the OP points out that the PRECURSOR to what is the final culmination of later schooling and competition was one by black pilots who denied their credit on the official record.

3. No kidding? Tell us something we don't know. Are you saying that all that knowledge and training and such is kept secret from other branches of the military? And since the NAVY didn't have such a competition at the time, it's a significant note in military aviation.

4. You can repeat your assertion until doomsday, but careful reading of the article tells the tale, and your lame attempt to diminish it's significance is pathetic.
Click to expand...





robert-downey-jr-rolls-eyes.jpg


LIGHTEN THE 'F' UP!

I read little of your reply.

The lead in of the article you quoted was poorly written and erroneous.
And so is this thread - in terms of comparing what the guy you mention did and the Top Gun school.

The two are TOTALLY different.

Whether you like it or not.

Now, I don't care NEARLY enough about this subject to continue with your childish behavior over it.

Bye now.


Oh...some advice.
Stop making shit up.
You clearly did that at least 3 times during our 'discussion'.
It makes you look silly and/or unintelligent.

We ARE done here.
Click to expand...

So essentially you keep repeating YOUR OPINION as if it's on par with ALL the facts pertaining. As the chronology of the posts show, I've addressed each and every one of your points and shown how they do NOT detract from what the OP is stating. You just don't like the implications. TFB, no one said life was easy.

I systematically deconstructed your stance in the previous post. It's plain to see that you really have no argument, as twice now you've claimed that you don't care enough about the subject and are uninterested in the historical implications of the OP....yet here you are AGAIN blathering the SOS for what, 2 days now? Seems you've got issues but are confused as to how to address them. Seek therapy.

Oh, and for the record...your stance is so lame now that you accuse me of "making shit up". Care to copy and paste or reference when this happened? Because if you can't or won't, it's just another indicator that you are too insipidly stubborn and intellectually dishonest to just concede a point.

Yes, your meme perfectly describes your position. And yes, YOU ARE DONE HERE. Run, little man, run!
 
Street Glider said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
:palm: No one said that the movie was a historical narrative...
Click to expand...

Okay, good.

And... what?

Did someone claim that the Tom Cruise movie was historically accurate? And, if it's not, what's the problem anyway?

I've also watched the movies "Star Wars" and "Jurassic Park". I'm pretty sure neither of those were historically accurate, either...

but people believe what they see, and with the subliminal jingoism in a Reagan era movie, most don't make the distinctions.
Click to expand...

What distinction should've been made?

Which is why the OP is so upsetting to jokers like you...more proof of this country's systemic racism that infects it historical record.
Click to expand...

I'm not at all upset by the OP, and it's stupid for you to suggest that I am.

I watched and enjoyed a movie.

Nothing more, nothing less...

There you have it, dear readers. Another intellectually impotent MAGA minion who proudly glides down the street of insipidly stubborn stupidity.
Click to expand...
What an ignorant thing for you to belch up.

First off, find one post of mine, anywhere on the internet, in which I say I claim "MAGA" as some sort of personal guide, and I'll buy you a house. How it is that you're able to be so ignorant as to suggest that a political belief would preclude acknowledging historical fact is a mystery.

Second, the movie "Top Gun" was accurate in that the Navy's Fighter Weapons School (aka "Top Gun") is an actual thing which was depicted in the movie. As you say, the movie wasn't intended to be an historical narrative. Why, then, would you wet yourself over the fact that it wasn't?

Oh, and the Tuskegee Airmen weren't Navy, nor did they participate in any "Top Gun" competition. Saying that something is "Top Gun style" is akin to saying that a Volkswagen Beetle is a "Mercedes-Benz style" car because they're both German-made automobiles.

This would be a more enjoyable conversation if you didn't insist on approaching it so stupidly...
Click to expand...

Oh, lord....yet another long winded cross burner with delusions of intelligence. Let me make short work of this clown:


1. You should have stopped at your 1st sentence. Since you agree and accept what I say here, your subsequent contrary drivel is not only unnecessary, but irrelevant. If you're NOT reading the thread and other exchanges, then don't ask stupid questions.

2. If you're taking time to post this blather, then you have time to read through the thread and get your answer via the exchanges ... assuming you have the intellectual courage to honestly assess what you read. I don't do others homework, nor do I indulge stall tactics as folk like you scramble for a "got'cha" moment.

3. No one suggested you didn't like the movie, genius. I'm merely pointing out how jokers like you take a LOT of time and effort to diminish or debunk the point of the OP. That you claim it doesn't bother you contradicts all the time and effort you put into doing the aforementioned. When things don't bother me and I agree with the premise, I either tap a "thanks" or just move on with no response. If you're honest in your claim here, you should've done the same....otherwise, stop lying to yourself and the readers in this regards.

4. Sorry to burst your bubble, it is your willful, insipidly stubborn ignorance that I am addressing. Attempting to project your short comings on me is a futile effort, as anyone can see. (A) I am pointing out your similarity to MAGA machinations...my assessment points to your postings as a whole, it does not require you to state one specific word... a childish an uneducated stance on your part (B) As I said to one of your like minded brethren, information and techniques in the military are shared when applicable. It would be stupid of you to say that because something was learned in the Army is not relevant (or adaptable) to another military branch with the same equipment. (C) in the OP, the word "style" is used. Re-read the OP, find that word and see how it's applied. Hopefully, this will help you to see how moot and irrelevant the rest of your drivel is.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Oh, lord....yet another long winded cross burner with delusions of intelligence. Let me make short work of this clown:
Click to expand...

Are you mentally retarded?

It seems that could be the case...


3. No one suggested you didn't like the movie, genius. I'm merely pointing out how jokers like you take a LOT of time and effort to diminish or debunk the point of the OP.
Click to expand...

I've not done that an iota...

That you claim it doesn't bother you contradicts all the time and effort you put into doing the aforementioned.
Click to expand...

I'm sure posting to an internet forum is something which vexes you to the point where you can take hours to do it.

It comes pretty quickly to me. Why? Because it's the goddamn internet and, as such, nothing posted here really matters, especially if it's drivel from you...

When things don't bother me and I agree with the premise, I either tap a "thanks" or just move on with no response. If you're honest in your claim here, you should've done the same....otherwise, stop lying to yourself and the readers in this regards.
Click to expand...

You're a fool. You're essentially saying that everyone reacts as you do.

Narcissit much?

4. Sorry to burst your bubble, it is your willful, insipidly stubborn ignorance that I am addressing. Attempting to project your short comings on me is a futile effort, as anyone can see. (A) I am pointing out your similarity to MAGA machinations...my assessment points to your postings as a whole, it does not require you to state one specific word... a childish an uneducated stance on your part (B) As I said to one of your like minded brethren, information and techniques in the military are shared when applicable. It would be stupid of you to say that because something was learned in the Army is not relevant (or adaptable) to another military branch with the same equipment. (C) in the OP, the word "style" is used. Re-read the OP, find that word and see how it's applied. Hopefully, this will help you to see how moot and irrelevant the rest of your drivel is.
Click to expand...

You are retarded.

I've not taken issue with anything in the OP, so I'm not entirely sure why you insist on wetting yourself over what I've posted.

But, since you bring it up, the movie "Top Gun" has exactly nothing to do with the Tuskegee Airmen, primarily because it wasn't supposed to. It had to do with the Navy Fighter Weapons School, which none of the Tuskegee Airmen attended. They were great pilots, but they weren't Top Gun pilots, and competing in a "Top Gun style" contest doesn't make them so.

Again, I took no issue with the OP. So stop being a douchebag by pretending that I did...
 
Street Glider said:
Okay, good.

And... what?

Did someone claim that the Tom Cruise movie was historically accurate? And, if it's not, what's the problem anyway?

I've also watched the movies "Star Wars" and "Jurassic Park". I'm pretty sure neither of those were historically accurate, either...



What distinction should've been made?



I'm not at all upset by the OP, and it's stupid for you to suggest that I am.

I watched and enjoyed a movie.

Nothing more, nothing less...




What an ignorant thing for you to belch up.

First off, find one post of mine, anywhere on the internet, in which I say I claim "MAGA" as some sort of personal guide, and I'll buy you a house. How it is that you're able to be so ignorant as to suggest that a political belief would preclude acknowledging historical fact is a mystery.

Second, the movie "Top Gun" was accurate in that the Navy's Fighter Weapons School (aka "Top Gun") is an actual thing which was depicted in the movie. As you say, the movie wasn't intended to be an historical narrative. Why, then, would you wet yourself over the fact that it wasn't?

Oh, and the Tuskegee Airmen weren't Navy, nor did they participate in any "Top Gun" competition. Saying that something is "Top Gun style" is akin to saying that a Volkswagen Beetle is a "Mercedes-Benz style" car because they're both German-made automobiles.

This would be a more enjoyable conversation if you didn't insist on approaching it so stupidly...
Click to expand...

Sadly he nearly always does that, he's famous for it.
 
Street Glider said:
Are you mentally retarded?

It seems that could be the case...




I've not done that an iota...



I'm sure posting to an internet forum is something which vexes you to the point where you can take hours to do it.

It comes pretty quickly to me. Why? Because it's the goddamn internet and, as such, nothing posted here really matters, especially if it's drivel from you...



You're a fool. You're essentially saying that everyone reacts as you do.

Narcissit much?



You are retarded.

I've not taken issue with anything in the OP, so I'm not entirely sure why you insist on wetting yourself over what I've posted in #35 on this thread. Street Glider seems intend on remaining insipidly stubborn and obtuse on this subject....so much so that reacts as if his reading comprehension is well below high school G.E.D. This is why he just blathers on as if his opinion usurps facts, cognitive reasoning and logic. It's the only explanation for his self aggrandizing and pontificating repetition or already addressed issues.



But, since you bring it up, the movie "Top Gun" has exactly nothing to do with the Tuskegee Airmen, primarily because it wasn't supposed to. It had to do with the Navy Fighter Weapons School, which none of the Tuskegee Airmen attended. They were great pilots, but they weren't Top Gun pilots, and competing in a "Top Gun style" contest doesn't make them so.


Again, I took no issue with the OP. So stop being a douchebag by pretending that I did...
Click to expand...

Dear readers, rather than rehash everything I've previously stated, just go to Post #35. This clown just glides down the street of MAGA stupidity....refusing to acknowledge any explanation, fact or logic that doesn't scratch his itch.

For someone who claims he doesn't have a problem with OP, he sure wastes a LOT of time and space acting the opposite, as the chronology of the posts shows. I leave him to his folly.
 
Taichiliberal said:
As they say, the more you know.




When most of us think about “Top Gun,” we usually associate it with Tom Cruise’s character during the ’80s movie showcasing the Navy’s F-14 Tomcat exploits and over-the-top maneuvers. But in reality, it was a Tuskegee Airmen who took part and won the military’s first “Top Gun” style competition The United States Air Force held their “First Ever” Weapons Meet at Las Vegas Air Force Base, Nevada on 2 May 1949. The famous 332nd Fighter Group Team, of Captain Alva Temple, 1st Lieutenant Harry Stewart, 1st Lieutenant James Harvey and alternate pilot 1st Lieutenant Halbert Alexander won the Competition. However, the 332nd Fighter Group was never recognized as the “Winner” until April 1995. Forty-Six years after winning the Weapons Meet.




https://taichicago.org/americas-first-top-guns/
Click to expand...

isn't "Top Gun" a Navy thing?......
 
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