Reality check on electric cars

[Into the Night]

The cost to install a fast charger varies from about $500 to $2500 depending on the location of the service panel and where the charger is going. That would be for one running at 60 to 100 amps, the charger itself not included.

That's about right.

 

[Into the Night]

Hahahaha yup... driving through Wyoming on a vacation numerous years ago was a lot of fun that way too. At particular times, one had to make sure that the gas tank was filled full because some open stretches of road can go a LOOOOOOOOONG way before reaching another gas station. E.g. -- from Dayton, WY to Lovell, WY taking the Hwy Alt-14 route through the mountain terrain. I'd like to see an EV try to drive THAT route Same with the "forest roads" along that route They'd instead have to stick to the regular Hwy-14 route and hope that they could make it from Sheridan, WY to Cody, WY (roughly 150 miles without any detours) before needing to spend hours of time waiting to recharge again and they better not attempt that drive during Winter... or Summer...

And hope the road isn't closed due to construction or accident, necessitating a long detour to get around it!

 

[Into the Night]

They average 800 bucks.

Math error. Failure to declare boundary. Failure to provide published unbiased raw data. Argument from randU fallacy.

The charger is about 500 bucks.

So if you add that to the cheapest length of run quoted by T. A. Gardner (an electrician, BTW), you get $1000 (up to $3000).

Of course, you can come up with special conditions that says they cost more for someone somewhere.

He is not describing any 'special conditions'. Fallacy fallacy.

But Evs have been on the road since 2013 and they have real data.

EVs have been on the road since 1830. They have never succeeded in the marketplace. Currently, less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs (just check out the traffic on any freeway outside of a major city to verify this in the US). The EV market is currently crashing (again). You have not specified ANY data or even who 'they' are. Void reference fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

The install cost depends largely on two things:

Where the service panel is in relation to the charger and the length of the run that results.

For a 60 to 100 amp service expect to pay about $10 to $20 a foot for materials. Labor from a company like (local here) George Brazil, Parker and Sons, Haskins, is about $125 to $150 an hour and the install will take anywhere from 2 to 8 hours to complete.

Sure, if you can get somebody like me to do it instead where I'm not running a full-time business, using employees, etc., it'll be less but you can't count on finding somebody like me to do it either.

For example, the local company Parker and Sons just quoted a couple I did a ceiling fan for almost $9000 to replace their service panel. I quoted $4000 for the same work and said I might come in cheaper depending on the actual work involved. Additionally, they're quoting using Challenger (think the cheap knock off brand) for the panel and breakers. I told them I'd use Square D, GE, or ITE Siemens, the good brands for residential and let them choose after explaining the differences.

Ewww....a Challenger for a panel? These pieces of shit have a long history of electrical problems and fires, mostly stemming from badly designed breaker anchors and tiny hotside internal contacts. They were originally made by GTE/Sylvania. Later they became part of Westinghouse, then eventually Eaton, which still makes legacy breakers (vastly improved!) from the original breakers (which were pieces of shit). Some insurance companies won't even underwrite a policy for a house equipped with a Challenger panel, EVEN IF the inspector approved the installation.

At the very least, one should replace all the breakers in the things with the Eaton breakers to make the panel safer.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Ewww....a Challenger for a panel? These pieces of shit have a long history of electrical problems and fires, mostly stemming from badly designed breaker anchors and tiny hotside internal contacts. They were originally made by GTE/Sylvania. Later they became part of Westinghouse, then eventually Eaton, which still makes legacy breakers (vastly improved!) from the original breakers (which were pieces of shit). Some insurance companies won't even underwrite a policy for a house equipped with a Challenger panel, EVEN IF the inspector approved the installation.

At the very least, one should replace all the breakers in the things with the Eaton breakers to make the panel safer.

Well, what they have right now is an old panel with insufficient wiring space (before code started including that requirement) using UB breakers

Yes, you can still get those--unlike the guy from the company told these people--but they're expensive and I really, really don't like using them. If it's simply a repair / replace to save money over a new panel, I'll get them for that. But you can't get new panels that use them now.

 

[Into the Night]

Apparently it takes Walt 10,000 to 20,000 hours to become an expert at sorting laundry by type (socks, underwear, jeans, etc)

A rather slow learner he is...

 

[Into the Night]

WHOOOOOOOOOOA there, Bessy! Let me remind everyone of what you ACTUALLY said:

"It takes about 10,000 to 20,000 hours to become an expert in something. Most people will not be an expert in anything. But Mann thinks he can become an expert in a minute or two, and thinks he is an expert in everything."

It didn't even take me anywhere near two hours to become an expert at sorting laundry by each clothing type, let alone 10-20 thousand hours like it apparently takes for YOU to become an expert at it. I suggest that you stop wasting your time on this moronic exchange of yours and spend another 10,000 hours of your time on becoming an expert laundry sorter.


Speak for yourself. Just because YOU are unwilling to put in the time doesn't mean that other people aren't willing to put in the time.


... which you obviously lack.

Heck. I've taught people to build firework shells in much less time than that (over the course of a few days), and they are extremely good builders now! Others, of course, could just never get the hang of it.

 

[Into the Night]

You guys say the dumbest shit. I have never ever had to wait for charging. It happens at night when we sleep.

So you wait all night to charge your car, all while saying you aren't waiting for it.

I do not have to check gas prices.

I generally don't have to either.

I do not have to look for one with an open pump.

Easy to find. Never had to wait for a pump.

I do not have to pump my own gas in a potentially dangerous gas station.

You would rather charge your potentially dangerous EV in your garage instead, eh? You know, that's when most fires start with EVs, and they usually take much of the house with it.

You spend a lot of time involved in fueling your pollution mobile.

About 5 minutes every 10 days. Gasoline isn't pollution. CO2 is not pollution. Water is not pollution.

Your EV requires about twice the energy to make your car go the same distance. That power plant the supports your charging system also produces CO2. All the components that go into making the wiring, batteries, power plant, etc. also require generating CO2 to make them and transport them to where they are needed.

 

[Into the Night]

It is. However, that is the typical experience. That is why EV owners love them.

An anecdote is not evidence. It's a merely a story.

Less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs. The EV market is crashing (yet again).

 

[Into the Night]

So like EV's and also pickup trucks, and also sedans, and also Minivans, they are not perfect for every need, for every driver.

Thanks for making my point that different drivers have different needs and you do not dismiss a class of vehicles because you can find an area that the vehicle does not work good in.

In fairness RB, I have not seen you make that stupid argument but it is a mainstay of Terry amd gfm, idiotic based arguments to keep pointing at an area an EV might not be the greatest and to think that somehow dismisses them as a class of vehicles.

EV's continue to be the most ideal vehicle for the vast bulk of the population who are the typical work/home/errands/weekend getaway drivers who do 80%+ of their yearly driving within their home town and another 10% for weekend getaways to friends or a cottage, etc. The types of 'across the more rural states' trips applies to a tiny percent of the population or is a once every 'many years' trip, in which case you rent a more suitable to mile out, with all the money you saved on gas.

But that won't stop Terry from pushing this stupid argument in the future, just as they push 'but EV's catch fire' as if an argument and that is because they know they have few valid arguments.

You seem to be ignoring several important factors:

* Less then 1% of the cars on the road are EVs. They are obviously not 'the best car for most people'. The market has spoken.
* The EV market is crashing. They are obviously not 'the best car for most people'. The market has spoken.
* All this is happening DESPITE the government mandates for EVs (and related charging systems) and heavy government subsidies for EVs. Obviously, the government does NOT want an open market. They want fascism and communism.
* EVs can and do catch first just sitting there. Fires are most common during the charging cycle (usually do a charger becoming defective which can happen in an instant without warning), and often take nearby vehicles and/or structures with it. Lithium-ion fires burn much hotter than gasoline fires do, and they can start without warning. Gasoline fires only start from wrecks of from a botched repair or modification to the induction system. EV fires may also occur due to simple corrosion, and have caused ships to be lost at sea when shipping them, since that fire started down in the hold.

You can't put out an EV fire with water or much of anything else until the entire battery pack is involved. By that time, the whole car is a total loss (and often other nearby vehicles and buildings with it!).
You CAN easily put out a gasoline fire with Halon, CO2, chemical extinguishers, or even water (once the spilled gasoline is consumed and it's just the car burning). Usually only a small amount of gasoline is spilled in such fires.

The power plant is not a body style. False equivalence fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

If I am going to choose one vehicle to own, and I need that vehicle to be able to drive 900 miles (let alone even a few hundred miles) in a day (which requires very fast refueling), I am not going to be choosing an EV.

If I am going to choose one vehicle to own, and I need that vehicle to be able to haul wood, tow trailers, and other such work, I am not going to be choosing an EV.

If I am going to choose one vehicle to own, and I need that vehicle to be able to reliably operate in harsh Winter conditions, I am not going to be choosing an EV.

It doesn't matter if an EV would work the other 80-90% of the time. It's the remaining 10-20% of the time that it DOESN'T work that is the issue.


Okay.


EV's can't serve the purposes of most people. That's why most people do not own an EV.


Here, you're resorting to ridiculousness because that's all you have left.

A person who needs to haul more than a small amount of stuff at a time is not going to buy a sedan. That person is going to buy a pickup truck instead because it better suits that person's needs. This is why most people do not buy EVs; EVs don't suit the needs of most people.

I've used a sedan to haul firewood from a family member's house to my house before. You'd be surprised how much firewood can fit inside of a large sedan's trunk. While it's not nearly as efficient of a transfer method as using a truck bed or using a truck pulling a trailer full of firewood, it still works for a person who doesn't own a truck and who already goes over to that location on a weekly basis anyway. Just take back a trunk load of firewood each week, and over a few months of doing so, one has enough firewood to last the entire Winter. --- In most cases, this method wouldn't fit one's needs (needing to haul a bunch of firewood at one time in one trip). However, in this special case, as the need is only to be able to haul some firewood at a time over a whole bunch of separate trips, then a sedan can fit that need where-as it typically cannot fit firewood hauling needs.

Likewise, if a person needs to travel 900 miles and it doesn't matter how long it takes that person to get there, then that person could make an EV work for that purpose. However, if that person needs to travel 900 miles within a single day, then an EV simply will not meet the needs of that person.

A gasoline sedan can haul a trailer (to haul more firewood or anything else). Most EVs cannot tow at all...not even an empty utility trailer. Such a load is beyond the vehicle's GCWR (in other words, EVs use GVWR for GCWR).

 

[Into the Night]

gfm next insightful post is to tell the world why the segment of econo box ICE sedans were never actually of value to anyone because he can name situations they are not great at.

This despite the fact that econobox were a dominant segment, as the around town runabout vehicle, due to fuel savings, and the fact most people are making short, 1 or 2 person trips in them primarily.

gfm however tells everyone why they are wrong as an econobox

- econo box - not great in heavy winter weather
- econo box - not great for large families
- econo box - not comfortable to long drives
- econo box- can't haul wood or other stuff

- econo box - it does not matter if it works great the other 80-90% of time, they simply do not make sense to have as a segment as they do not work for everything, including that 10-20% of other.

This is how the idiotic mind of gfm works, to tell OTHERS there car choice makes no sense based on the areas HE THINKS they need to ALSO be good at.

The best selling vehicle is the Ford F150 (gasoline version)...NOT an 'econobox'.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

You seem to be ignoring several important factors:

* All this is happening DESPITE the government mandates for EVs (and related charging systems) and heavy government subsidies for EVs. Obviously, the government does NOT want an open market. They want fascism and communism.

Your government mandated car...

Your government mandated SUV

Letting the government decide what kind of car you can have is a sure recipe for disaster.

 

[Into the Night]

And here you continue with your stupidity as you MAKE MY POINT and do not realize it.

You are not making a point. You are repetitively chanting.

Correct sedans are not great for hauling wood,

They haul wood just fine. You can also attach a trailer to a gasoline powered sedan and haul MORE wood.

and those who need that will buy a Pick up.,

A pickup can haul MORE wood, but not as much as the Sedan with a trailer.

meaning those who buy sedans do so for the OTHER functionality they NEED MORE.

Body styles are not power plants. False equivalence fallacy. Repetition fallacy (chanting).

That is MY ARGUEMENT with EV's. They are valued for what they DO, 80-90% of the time and not excluded, like a sedan for what it cannot do the rest.

Chanting is not an argument. It's chanting. You also completed ignored the counterargument. Argument of the Stone fallacy. Repetition fallacy.

And you seem to not understand there are EV, SUV, Minivans and Pickup trucks too.

Yup, and they suck just as much. They are also not selling at all well, just like EV sedans (like the Tesla Model 3, which incidentally, cannot tow at all).

So this is where you jump to another niche where EV's are not great thinking you are making a statement against them when like you say with Sedans, those who do things are not going to buy an EV. Simple as that. For the rest of the populace (that 80+%) an Ev is an ideal vehicle.

Repetition fallacy (chanting). Argument of the Stone fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

you and that idiot gfm keep pointing at what EV's are not ideal at doing as an argument against them such as his post i am replying to above this one.

It is a completely stupid argument to make and yet you persist.

IF i want something it is because of what it does, and not because of what it does not do. A motorcycle might be very appropriate for me, and no amount of you guys pointing and laughing that it cannot haul wood, is not good in the winter, etc, changes that for me and a large part of the populace it may be the best choice for them, depending on where they live and what their daily commute looks like.

The FACT is EV's are ideal for the bulk of the populace in the same the class of econo box was prior. AGAIN it does not matter that gfm, like an idiot can list what econo box cars are not good at doing. WHat they were GREAT at doing was getting a person to work and back and around town, CHEAPLY, which is the BULK of most peoples driving.

And EV's are better than the econobox, as they are even cheaper and more convenient for 'fueling' for those type of trips but also the EV"s as a class provide far more value matching most full size sedans, SUV's and minivans for most family needs. Of course this is where the idiot gfm comes in and points out what the EV is not ideal for, thinking he is making some point, and then you, Terry clap along with his idiocy.

The market disagrees with you.

 

[Into the Night]

If you get all verklempt about EVs, a hybrid will solve all your problems.

A hybrid is a gasoline powered car. It is not an EV.

You use EV power for all local trips, not using gas at all.

A hybrid is a gasoline powered car. It is not an EV.

If you have a trip to make, then after the battery power is gone, you use gas for the rest of the trip. It works out to be much cheaper.

Because a hybrid is a gasoline powered car.

Because you carrying around the weight of two powerplants instead of one, hybrids are effectively sedans with poor gas mileage.

 

[Into the Night]

Your logic is flawed and wrong.

Inversion fallacy. You cannot blame YOUR problems on anybody else.

the choice of EV's and support for them (charging stations, etc) has been extremely limited, so you CANNOT make the judgements you do in that way.

Since 40 years since the Li-ion battery became available and the first practical range on a car using these batteries 15 years ago, and with some 165,000 charging stations installed in the US alone (2023 figures, not including home charging stations, most stations installed by government mandate at property owner's expense) and Ford, GM, Toyota, Subaru, VW, BMW, Tesla, ALL making electric cars at some point (Ford is getting out of them, losing too much money on them, and the same for Toyota), your argument is rather weak, calling these cars 'untested' or 'newly emerging technology' or 'limited availability'.

Ford and Toyota are, after all, the two largest automotive manufactures in the world.

...and both decided to get out of EVs, because they are losing too much money on them.

That would be like in the early days of the internet or the PC or Cell phone judging them by what percent of the populace is using them, when that number is still tiny, percent wise, because they have not done a full mass roll out yet, with all the benefits mass production brings in terms of tech improvement and accessibility.

PC's became popular as soon as the first 8/8/16/16 processor was available as a three chip set (the Intel 8080). After that, they became even MORE popular when the Web was developed and Windows finally became capable of network handling (Win311 w/modifications).

As always Terry you return to your forever flaw which is why we had decided prior you were not to speak about ANY technology and that is that you ALWAYS judge technology early in its mass commercialization curve based on it today and as if no improvements will follow.

The Luddite is YOU. You cannot blame YOUR problem on anybody else. You are ignoring the many advances in the internal combustion engine, even over the last few years. The most significant advance (which happened a few years ago) is the universal adoption of the FADEC design. This increase engine efficiency to require only about half the energy an EV would to travel the same distance. Bodies are made of lighter and more corrosion resistant materials too. Sensors on them now monitor tire pressure, proximity to objects, lane conflicts, cruise follower, steering assist, headlight followers, headlight high sense, plus of course the usual gaggle of sensors that make engine maintenance and diagnosis a lot simpler.

Heck, the SPARK PLUGS can last almost the normal life of the car now!
Gasket materials have improved dramatically. Most will last for ten years or more now.

A five minute refueling time and a range easily twice that of an EV (giving the gasoline car an effective range of infinite) sure beats wasting hours of your time waiting for recharge and constantly looking for your next recharge!
Gasoline care are a LOT cheaper too. They are much lighter, which gives them far better maneuverability than an EV and giving them far better towing capacity, and they can be repaired or maintained with fairly common tools in a home garage or even in the driveway.

Can't do THAT with an EV!

That is wrong Terry. You are wrong Terry.

Attempted proof by void. Argument of the Stone fallacy.

 

[Nordberg]

Your government mandated car...

Your government mandated SUV

Letting the government decide what kind of car you can have is a sure recipe for disaster.

Do you mean like this?

Evs have the same varieties as ICEs.

 

[Into the Night]

Right and they buy EV's because they do not need to drive across great rural expanses or in extreme cold weather.

You accept that as reasons to 'buy sedans' (the 10-20% they do not do great) while saying the reason to not buy EV's is based on the 10-20% they do not do well.

You are a hypocrite and stupid and are the reason my signature rings true.

The market disagrees with you.

Less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs.

 

[Into the Night]

Just as like if 'anyone has need to haul more wood the sedan goes bye bye'.

A gasoline sedan has no problem hauling wood. Indeed, it can tow a trailer and haul MORE wood than a pickup truck.

Just like if 'anyone has need for cheaper fueling for around town trips primarily the pick up truck goes bye bye'.

Driving a sedan does not reduce the price of gasoline.

Just as if someone has 'need for more than 4 passengers econo box go bye bye.

The current world record for fitting people into a Volkswagon Beetle is 57 (Guiness word record, established just two days ago in (Feb 19) in 2019). THAT's an econobox!

You continue to repeat the same brainless argument

You are describing yourself again. You cannot blame YOUR problems on anybody else.

that since you can point to an area an EV is not ideal for, that somehow disqualifies EV's as the best choice generally for huge segments of the population.

The market disagrees with you. The market has spoken. Less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs. The EV market is crashing (yet again).

You do this despite the FACT i can show that each and every vehicle class has areas it is not ideal in.

Learn what 'fact' means. It does not mean 'proof'. It does not mean 'Universal Truth'.

Econo Box cars have been one of the biggest sellers in any market serving the vast majority of the population, for a long, long time.

The market disagrees with you. The best selling vehicle of any type is a Ford F150 (gasoline version). The best selling sedan is a Toyota Camry (gasoline version).

If you look at the main reason people would choose an econo box, despite them not being perfect in super cold, snowy weather, despite them not being great at hauling stuff, despite them not being ideal for long cross country trips,

There is no car model called an 'econo box'. Can you name a specific model? Why do you continue to confuse body style with power plant?

the reason those shortcomings DO NOT impact people buying them, is that their PRIMARY need is for a car to get them around town, to work/school/errands around town and short trips (2-3hours) for weekend trips to cottage or family. EV's cover all that perfectly as well, and as a segment do so much more.

...and the market has spoken. People prefer gasoline cars. Less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs, and the EV market is crashing (yet again).