Reality check on electric cars

[Scott]

There are -some- advantages:
Thinking About Buying a Hybrid? Here Are Some Pros and Cons | cars.com

But I'm not nearly as impressed as I used to be about them.

A partial EV would be a hybrid.

Interesting. Tell me, have you heard of these alternatives to both ICEs, hybrids and EVs?

The Mysterious Death of Stanley Meyer and His Water-Powered Car | gaia.com

The link above has information on Stanley Meyer and his patented water powered car, but also that the U.S. Navy made a model plane that ran off of sea water and an inventor who made regular gas super efficient. Why does no one talk of these things?

Some more links on those last 2:
Navy powers model plane using fuel made from sea water | newatlas.com

Tom Ogle Engine Explained And The Story Behind It | Mechanic Base

I talk of those things.

We used to talk about this all the time! Thanks for the link!

You're welcome

Back in those days it was an old man showing me newspapers and talking about it.

Nice. The first link atually has a jpeg of a newspaper article. Unfortunately, the resolution isn't high enough to see what newspaper it was in.

That old man could do some amazing stuff! He taught me how to balance an engine, among other things.

What else? Oh yeah, how to adjust lifter/cam clearance on an overhead cam engine.

I think about him every time I hear one of those Puerto-Rican riceburners that need it revving up down the road and backfiring. I can hear it!

And they wonder why their engine breaks.

I actually learned about water powered cars through a very gifted mechanic- he used to be my sister's partner. He never tried to build one himself though. He was a pretty practical man and I guess he decided trying to figure out how to build one wasn't worth the effort.

There are people who have certainly claimed to have made water powered engines. Here's a video with what certainly appears to be a water powered motorcycle:

 

[Scott]

While looking at the video on the water powered motorcycle, I came across the following video that I thought might interest some here...

 

[IBDaMann]

Good point! I should also be factoring this into my "gas tank size" reasoning. Reasoning is now amended as follows:

Range of a Chevy Bolt (EV):
EPA suggested range = ~250 miles
"Don't charge your battery above 80%" = ~200 miles of range
"Don't deplete your battery below 20%" = ~150 miles of range

But wait, there's more! If you act now, you can reduce your EV's range even further by driving faster than 20 mph. Manufacturer "estimates" are always too high, not surprisingly. All EVs begin to drop drastically in range as speed exceeds 20 mph. We can delude ourselves into trusting manufacturers' estimates by telling ourselves "the manufacturer took all of this into account, I'm certain of it. Why would they lie about something so important?" We could also ask ourselves why people who get conned into buying EVs or solar panels would lie to hide their shame, with those lies taking the form of "This was a great decision on my part; everybody else should do the same so that the silliness of my decision isn't so conspicuous!"

So, the base "advertised range" of 250 miles should actually have been only 220, which is actually only 120 miles if following the aforementioned battery maintenance guidelines, [climate reuse] and that's only under various ideal conditions. For instance, if you wish to turn on your heating or cooling system, that means less range. If you wish to drive in hot or cold conditions (such as 90 degrees or 0 degrees Fahrenheit), that means less range. Same if it's raining outside, if it's dark outside, if it's foggy outside, etc. etc. etc. Thus, it doesn't take very much to reduce that EV's "250 mile" advertised range [/climate reuse] down to 70-80 miles (or less) of realized range.

 

[Into the Night]

You're welcome



Nice. The first link atually has a jpeg of a newspaper article. Unfortunately, the resolution isn't high enough to see what newspaper it was in.



I actually learned about water powered cars through a very gifted mechanic- he used to be my sister's partner. He never tried to build one himself though. He was a pretty practical man and I guess he decided trying to figure out how to build one wasn't worth the effort.

There are people who have certainly claimed to have made water powered engines. Here's a video with what certainly appears to be a water powered motorcycle:

Not a water powered motorcycle.

He claims it makes hydrogen gas by electrolysis to be used in a fuel cell.

* It takes MORE energy to run such an electrolysis to obtain the hydrogen then you get by using the hydrogen. You cannot create energy out of nothing.
* Hydrogen fuel cells DO NOT have much 'acceleration' in them. They take awhile to come up to power. The motorcycle would never have the ability to accelerate that way on a fuel cell. This is why fuel cell vehicles have a large battery (Li-ion), somewhat smaller than for an EV), to act as an electrical ballast.

You probably didn't notice the extra fairing UNDER the so-called 'fuel tank' containing water. That's hiding the real fuel tank. You probably didn't notice the internal combustion engine or the exhaust pipe mounted there either. He covered it pretty good with fairings and painting, but it's there.

In other words, a fake...and not a particularly good one at that.

 

[Into the Night]

While looking at the video on the water powered motorcycle, I came across the following video that I thought might interest some here...

TANSTAAFL.

* It takes MORE energy to create the hydrogen then you get by burning it. You cannot create energy out of nothing. You are still ignoring the 1st law of thermodynamics.

 

[Nordberg]

Yep, a water-powered car coming to a showroom near you. Anything but a real car, the EV. https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3428/4271579/

 

[Into the Night]

Yep, a water-powered car coming to a showroom near you. Anything but a real car, the EV. https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3428/4271579/

True Scotsman fallacy. The EV market is collapsing (again). Less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs, Sock.

 

[Lionfish]

 

[Lionfish]

 

[IBDaMann]

Used electric cars have dropped 10 times faster than gasoline models over the past year.

The study examined used car prices across 1.8 million used cars between one and five years old. Used EV prices have been dropping, and they were down between 17% and 39% year-over-year during the 12 months that ended in February. During the same period, the price of used Teslas is down 28.9%.

Chevy Bolt Price Drop
Among individual models, the car with the most significant drop was GM’s Chevy Bolt, which lost 30.4% of its value to $17,981. The Tesla Model X lost 24.6% of its value to $60,943. The Model 3 lost 24.1% of its value to $30,466. The Model S lost 20.5% to $58,875.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/tesla-used-car-prices-plunge/ar-BB1k2Agi?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=74b1ee5206a3427faca92ce6de46358c&ei=19

 

[IBDaMann]

Jump to the 55-second (0:55) mark.

 

[IBDaMann]

EVs drive Climate Change.

Apparently, evil shits who don't give a damn about the environment and who don't care one iota about Global Warming are destroying this planet with their pollution-mongering EVs. Nordberg, how could you?

According to a paper published at Emission Analytics titled “Gaining traction, losing tread Pollution from tire wear now 1,850 times worse than exhaust emissions,” EV tire wear is a massive contributor to air pollution.

https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/gaining-traction-losing-tread

By some distance, the research Emissions Analytics published in early 2020 claiming that tire particulate wear emissions were 1,000 times worse than exhaust emissions generated the most feedback of any subject we have tackled so far – feedback that was a mixture of surprise and scepticism.

Of particular attention was whether such a rate of wear would mean that any tire could be spent within just a few thousand miles with legal driving, however aggressive. Particularly vocal were the battery electric vehicle (BEV) community, sensitive to any suggestion that the added weight of these vehicles might lead to tire wear emissions that might confound the ‘zero emissions’ tag. Such was the reaction, the story was translated into over 40 languages worldwide.


Since that study, which was transparently designed to quantify the worst-case tire emissions under legal driving, Emissions Analytics has been testing and analysing tire wear emissions in more detail across a wider range of driving conditions, and has performed a detailed chemical analysis of hundreds of new tires. Furthermore, we have worked with the National Physical Laboratory in the UK objectively to quantify the uncertainties in our measurements of chemical composition.

The headline conclusion we draw now is that, comparing real-world tailpipe particulate mass emissions to tire wear emissions, both in ‘normal’ driving, the latter is actually around 1,850 times greater than the former. Yes, in normal driving the ratio is almost double the previous figure for aggressive driving.

Can you imagine the world of shit we'd be in, and how fuqqed this planet would be, if everyone was as misanthropic as Nordberg and drove EVs? Maybe it's time to outlaw EVs to save the planet, although it might already be too late.

 

[Scott]

Not a water powered motorcycle.

He claims it makes hydrogen gas by electrolysis to be used in a fuel cell.

Does he claim that? My take is that it takes water and then converts it into its component parts, thereafter using the hydrogen to fuel the motorcycle. In other words, a water powered motorcycle.

* It takes MORE energy to run such an electrolysis to obtain the hydrogen then you get by using the hydrogen.

Usually, it does take more. In this case, as well as in the case of Stanley Meyer's water powered car, the claim is that they have found a way to extract more energy out of it than they put in. I didn't work on the project, so I don't know how it was apparently done, but I certainly think it deserves more study. Apparently, Toyota's working on a water powered car. I'm interested to see what happens there.

You cannot create energy out of nothing.

Agreed. No one's claiming that energy was created out of nothing here.

* Hydrogen fuel cells DO NOT have much 'acceleration' in them. They take awhile to come up to power. The motorcycle would never have the ability to accelerate that way on a fuel cell.

It seems you believe that video is fraudulent. Do you think you can prove it?

You probably didn't notice the extra fairing UNDER the so-called 'fuel tank' containing water. That's hiding the real fuel tank.

Somehow, I doubt you can prove your assertion, but by all means, you can try to if you like.

You probably didn't notice the internal combustion engine or the exhaust pipe mounted there either. He covered it pretty good with fairings and painting, but it's there.

I don't claim to understand how this apparently water powered motorcycle works. But you claiming that it can't be real because you think it's hiding things doesn't prove anything.

 

[Scott]

TANSTAAFL.

* It takes MORE energy to create the hydrogen then you get by burning it.

No creation of hydrogen is involved, water has plenty of it. You haven't shown any evidence that extracting hydrogen from water -has- to take more energy than the energy gained from using hydrogen as a fuel. Now, I grant you that few seem to have managed to do it, but just because how to do something isn't readily apparent doesn't mean it's impossible.

 

[Scott]

EVs drive Climate Change.

Apparently, evil shits who don't give a damn about the environment and who don't care one iota about Global Warming are destroying this planet with their pollution-mongering EVs. Nordberg, how could you?



https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/gaining-traction-losing-tread



Can you imagine the world of shit we'd be in, and how fuqqed this planet would be, if everyone was as misanthropic as Nordberg and drove EVs? Maybe it's time to outlaw EVs to save the planet, although it might already be too late.

I think you're being overly harsh with Nordberg, but based on the study from Emission Analytics, it does appear that the best we can do for the planet is to stop making EVs and look for better alternatives.

 

[Scott]

Yep, a water-powered car coming to a showroom near you. Anything but a real car, the EV. https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3428/4271579/

The article you link to is over 20 years old and there's evidence that even -then- water powered cars had already been around, such as Stanley Meyer's car that apparently ran on water. Anyone can make claims, such as the one in your article: "It takes exactly the same amount of energy to pry those hydrogen and oxygen atoms apart inside the electrolysis cell as you get back when they recombine inside the fuel cell."

The hard thing is to actually -prove- one's claim. I have seen no such proof of this one. Which means that Stanley Meyer and others who have shown evidence that water powered cars can work are still in the running for potentially true.

I actually met a man who claimed to have made a water powered car, opened up the hood of his car and showed me a bunch of stuff under there that clearly wasn't standard. Now, I'm no mechanic, so I can't vouch for whether it was real or not. But until I see proof that water powered cars can't work, I'll continue to look into it. Considering how important it is to have environmentally friendly cars, I think a lot more people should be doing the same.

 

[IBDaMann]

My take is that it takes water and then converts it into its component parts, thereafter using the hydrogen to fuel the motorcycle. In other words, a water powered motorcycle.

Phoenix, you really need to take a second look at this with a tad bit more scrutiny. These kinds of hype-scams make their rounds periodically just to get the scientifically illiterate masses interested enough to buy certain stocks and to raise their values. The maker of the video you posted probably has a lot of Toyota stock that he wants to sell, and is hoping that you and others like you will rush in and give Toyota stock an uptick.

First, you are not describing a water-powered motorcycle. You are describing a hydrogen-powered motorcycle. You should be insulted and offended at the hype wording of the video and at the attempt to treat you like an imbecil.

Second, you should always be suspicious anytime someone pretends to speak for someone else. Your video is not an official Toyota video and Toyota had nothing to do with it. There are many hype videos out there selling Toyota's hydrogen cars, and whereas many open with Toyota's CEO saying with emotion (in Japanese) "Welcome to a new era!" ... he could be talking about anything, because the videos always cut it off at the point.

Third, just as gfm7175 has been telling you that EV manufacturers overstate the range of their vehicles, the range of hydrogen engines is vastly overstated by manufacturers as well. Normal range for hydrogen engines is abysmal; nobody would buy a hydrogen-powered vehicle if he knew the true range of a safe configuration. Manufacturers of hydrogen engines rely on the public providing a semblance of "suspension of disbelief" and afford manufacturers their 1st Amendment right of creative license.
The only options for offering a hydrogen vehicle with acceptable range is to either have the vehicle pull a separate large trailer that is the fuel "tank" or to greatly pressurize the hydrogen in an internal "tank" to the point that the vehicle a mobile bomb, drving around traffic, i.e. one should avoid fender-benders as though one's life and the lives of others depend on it.

So we get to your assertion that hydrogen can be pulled from water via electrolysis. The two problems are:

1. the electrolysis requires more energy than is provided by the hydrogen, resulting in a negative net energy for powering the engine.
2. you preclude the use of fuel cells and usher in all of the problems mentioned above.

This is not, by any means, the first time hydrogen has been hyped on the internet. It won't be the last. I guarantee you that you will look at it differently the next time the same hype makes its rounds.

No one's claiming that energy was created out of nothing here.

If I had a nickel for each time I have read this, ZenMode alone would make me a rich man.

It seems you believe that video is fraudulent.

Hype is only fraudulent if you actually incur damages from following it. Since you haven't purchased a hydrogen-powered engine, there is no fraud yet.

SEC Charges Hydrogen Vehicle Co. Hyzon Motors and Two Former Executives for Misleading Investors

Washington D.C., Sept. 26, 2023 —
The Securities and Exchange Commission today announced settled fraud charges against Hyzon Motors Inc., an upstate New York-based company that builds hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs), for misleading investors about its business relationships and vehicle sales before and after a July 2021 merger with a publicly-traded special purpose acquisition company, or SPAC. The SEC also charged Craig M. Knight, Hyzon’s former CEO, and Max C.B. Holthausen, former managing director of Hyzon’s European subsidiary, for their roles in the fraudulent scheme.

According to the SEC’s complaint, Hyzon misrepresented the status of its business dealings with potential customers and suppliers to create the false appearance that significant sales transactions were imminent. The complaint alleges that Hyzon also falsely stated that it had delivered its first FCEV in July 2021, even going as far as posting a misleading video of the vehicle purportedly running on hydrogen, when the vehicle was not equipped to operate on hydrogen power. The complaint further alleges that Hyzon later falsely reported that it sold 87 FCEVs in 2021, when in fact it had not sold any vehicles that year. Knight allegedly was responsible for the false statements about Hyzon’s customer and supplier relationships. Holthausen allegedly was responsible for Hyzon’s false statements about delivery of its first FCEV and for Hyzon’s false reporting of certain FCEV sales.

“Transparency in the form of full, fair, and accurate disclosure is fundamental to the federal securities laws,” said Jason Burt, Regional Director of the SEC’s Denver Regional Office. “The defendants allegedly violated this principle by misleading investors about virtually every aspect of Hyzon’s business. The terms of today’s settlement, if approved by the court, will hold Hyzon and responsible individuals accountable for their misconduct.”

The SEC’s complaint, filed in U.S. District Court for the Western District of New York, charges Hyzon, Knight, and Holthausen with violating the antifraud and other provisions of the federal securities laws. Without admitting or denying the SEC’s allegations, Hyzon, Knight, and Holthausen each consented to permanent injunctions and to pay $25 million, $100,000, and $200,000, respectively, in civil penalties. Knight and Holthausen also agreed to prohibitions from serving as officers or directors of a publicly traded company for a period of five and ten years, respectively. The settlements are subject to court approval.

 

[Scott]

Here's a video with what certainly appears to be a water powered motorcycle:

Not a water powered motorcycle.

He claims it makes hydrogen gas by electrolysis to be used in a fuel cell.

Does he claim that? My take is that it takes water and then converts it into its component parts, thereafter using the hydrogen to fuel the motorcycle. In other words, a water powered motorcycle.

Phoenix, you really need to take a second look at this with a tad bit more scrutiny. These kinds of hype-scams make their rounds periodically just to get the scientifically illiterate masses interested enough to buy certain stocks and to raise their values. The maker of the video you posted probably has a lot of Toyota stock that he wants to sell, and is hoping that you and others like you will rush in and give Toyota stock an uptick.

I was actually discussing a video of a water powered motorcycle with Into the Night in the post you quoted above. I imagine you got confused because I also posted a video in a subsequent post claiming that Toyota was working on a water powered car, a post which Into the Night also responded to.

First, you are not describing a water-powered motorcycle. You are describing a hydrogen-powered motorcycle. You should be insulted and offended at the hype wording of the video and at the attempt to treat you like an imbecil.

If you take a look at the motorcycle video, which can be seen in the nested quotes above, you'll see that the driver of said motorcycle fills the motorcycle with water, not hydrogen. Now, the video claims that the water is then broken down into its component parts of hydrogen and oxygen, but if he's filling the tank with water, I'd call it a water powered motorcycle.

Second, you should always be suspicious anytime someone pretends to speak for someone else. Your video is not an official Toyota video and Toyota had nothing to do with it. There are many hype videos out there selling Toyota's hydrogen cars, and whereas many open with Toyota's CEO saying with emotion (in Japanese) "Welcome to a new era!" ... he could be talking about anything, because the videos always cut it off at the point.

Alright, now you're talking about the Toyota video I posted here. I admit that I'd never heard that Toyota was developing such a car before I started seeing videos of it on youtube, so I admit that the claim that Toyota is developing a water powered car may not be true.

Third, just as gfm7175 has been telling you that EV manufacturers overstate the range of their vehicles, the range of hydrogen engines is vastly overstated by manufacturers as well.

I've never been talking about hydrogen cars, but rather water powered cars. While I certainly admit that I'm not sure if Toyota is truly developing a water powered car, there have been others who have certainly claimed to have developed water powered cars. There was also an inventor who claimed that he'd created a car that ran on gas fumes, making his car much more gas efficient than today's cars, as well as an article that the navy developed a sea water fueled model plane. I bring up articles for all of these claims here:

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...-check-on-electric-cars&p=5929965#post5929965

 

[Lionfish]

Joey soaks britches.

 

[Nordberg]

Let reality intrude. We have clean cars, EVs. They exist, and they have dealerships. They save money and are fun to drive. Hydrogen cars, water cars, and the others you guys pretend are options are not.