Reality check on electric cars

You didn't even ask me not to call you "Shirley". I'm disappointed.
Say it ain't so!

Are you fission for an agreement from me, here?
*drum flourish*


With wut? :dunno:
Something you need to learn is that energy can neither be created or destroyed.
Fission reactors. Plenty of energy in the universe, we don't need to create any to have way more than we have now.


And the batteries are a known fire hazard
As opposed to gasoline 15 years into mainstream adoption?


and an insurer will write off an EV that's been in a fender bender (or gotten wet) because of the risk that the batteries might be damaged.
Sounds like an engineering problem.
 
The oil won't last forever,
Yes it will. The earth produces hydrocarbons via geological activity in super-massive quantities. This is why we didn't run out in the 30's, the 40's, the 50's, the 60's, the 70's, the 80's, the 90's, the 2000's, the 2010's, and why now we have "more than ever."

Look up Fischer-Tropsh process.

Hydrocarbons (petroleum and natural gas) are earth's best, cheapest and most reliable renewable fuel, and combustion engines are the most fuel efficient. We should be focusing in this area ... until fusion becomes feasible, if ever.
 
No doubt. Work it out in a lab and perfect it.

Hop to it!
You don't know how hard I've tried to get an engineering lab to myself :)

with current battery technology
Of course I hope we get better electrical energy storage, but let's not lose sight of how far chemical batteries have come. 40 years ago a practical flying machine with batteries was simply impossible. Now it isn't.

A lead acid battery is SOOO much worse than Lithium Ion in SOOO many ways.

It's not like we couldn't make it work with lithium ion, we just need more of them. If we keep digging for rare earths and we perfect the recycling process eventually we'll build up enough storage so it won't be that expensive.

Or rather they will be expensive, but replacing an old one with a new one where you trade in the old one won't be expensive. Individuals will build up the lithium storage they own over their life times just like humanity did. By the time you have a house and two cars you'll have 5-10 "car sized" batteries to your name.

You keep them plugged in most of the time and with appropriate software to allow the batteries to feed back into the grid that would represent an enormous ability to handle peaks and dips in generation/consumption. It also adds blackout hardening as areas without any primary generators could use a combination of backups and all these batteries they have sitting around to stay powered for weeks.
 
A $10B program to buy EVs for the U.S. Postal Service is far behind schedule, with defense contractor Oshkosh not disclosing significant manufacturing difficulties for more than a year.

The USPS has received only 93 trucks - far fewer than the 3,000 expected by now.

Trump's transition team is considering canceling the contract to buy over 60,000 more of these all-electric USPS vehicles.



 
You don't know how hard I've tried to get an engineering lab to myself :)


Of course I hope we get better electrical energy storage, but let's not lose sight of how far chemical batteries have come. 40 years ago a practical flying machine with batteries was simply impossible. Now it isn't.

Practical? No. Sure there are now some electric aircraft in experimental status, but they're so badly uncompetitive with conventional jet and prop aircraft they'll never be adopted on any scale.

This is one example of the horrible inefficiency of an electric airplane:

A lead acid battery is SOOO much worse than Lithium Ion in SOOO many ways.

In terms of energy density, absolutely. Both are chock full of toxic shit.
It's not like we couldn't make it work with lithium ion, we just need more of them. If we keep digging for rare earths and we perfect the recycling process eventually we'll build up enough storage so it won't be that expensive.

There isn't enough recoverable lithium on the planet. Storage for use on the grid is a completely insane nightmare of a pipedream. Aside from that, if solar and wind were reliable--they aren't--we wouldn't need storage at all. We could produce our energy needs as we need it saving the entire cost of storage, 100% of that cost gone!
Or rather they will be expensive, but replacing an old one with a new one where you trade in the old one won't be expensive. Individuals will build up the lithium storage they own over their life times just like humanity did. By the time you have a house and two cars you'll have 5-10 "car sized" batteries to your name.

Recycling old lithium batteries isn't going to ever become cost effective. For example, automakers are now potting their batteries making recycling just short of impossible.

sandy-munro-is-baffled-by-what-he-finds-under-the-pink-foam-of-the-tesla-4680-battery-pack_2.jpg


That's the current Tesla battery pack. That pink foam potting makes repair and recycling of the battery pack all but impossible. The added epoxy on top--that kind of light grey stuff--only adds to that problem. You cannot economically disassemble the pack to recover the battery components so you can't recycle the pack.
You keep them plugged in most of the time and with appropriate software to allow the batteries to feed back into the grid that would represent an enormous ability to handle peaks and dips in generation/consumption. It also adds blackout hardening as areas without any primary generators could use a combination of backups and all these batteries they have sitting around to stay powered for weeks.
Doesn't work that way. Aside from the control issues involved, the cost of integrating that into the grid is beyond any nation's ability to pay for it even over say, several centuries.

Germany and England are perfect examples of the stupidity of wind and solar. With wind, both experienced recently a prolonged period of what the Germans call Dunkelflaute. That is a prolonged calm where there isn't any wind to be had. Not a few hours or a day or two, but several weeks of calm.

Or, bad weather that makes solar production drop to nothing for days on end.

tumblr_my2mb2shHS1qh3dpqo1_1280.jpg


That's a big problem right there!

Solar and wind are grossly expensive and inefficient. Let's just get rid of them entirely and go with what works: Nuclear backed by natural gas. We could have 80% of our power from nuclear that is stable, efficient, and far greener than solar and wind, backed by 20% using clean burning natural gas to cover fluctuations in the load.
 
Practical? No. Sure there are now some electric aircraft in experimental status, but they're so badly uncompetitive with conventional jet and prop aircraft they'll never be adopted on any scale.

This is one example of the horrible inefficiency of an electric airplane:

I'm not saying lithium ion is going to replace jet fuel, obviously the energy density of jet fuel is still way better. As a metric for how far battery tech has come though it works.

600 miles? Almost not worth taking a plane (if we had less onerous airports that would not be the case), but if you tried to do that with lead acid batteries in 1970 it would be 50 miles i.e. lucky to get off the ground before the battery overheats. So we see a transition from actually pointless to a niche use case.


There isn't enough recoverable lithium on the planet.
That's a bold statement, the planet is pretty big.

Every thirty years people pointed out that the known oil reserves would run out in 30 years but by the time the doomsday date arrived had found more reserves.

Lithium will be no different.

We even still keep finding gold veins although the concentrations aren't as high as our ancestors enjoyed.


Storage for use on the grid is a completely insane nightmare of a pipedream.
Well maybe we can do some calculations on that. Get a ratio of lithium mass to stored charge. Multiply it by the likely lithium available to be mined (although like I said that number has huge error bars on it), and then look at the kind of buffering that a 50x current power grid would need.


Recycling old lithium batteries isn't going to ever become cost effective. For example, automakers are now potting their batteries making recycling just short of impossible.

sandy-munro-is-baffled-by-what-he-finds-under-the-pink-foam-of-the-tesla-4680-battery-pack_2.jpg


That's the current Tesla battery pack. That pink foam potting makes repair and recycling of the battery pack all but impossible. The added epoxy on top--that kind of light grey stuff--only adds to that problem. You cannot economically disassemble the pack to recover the battery components so you can't recycle the pack.
Yea that's not making it easy, but they're doing that because of people fear mongering about the lighting on fire. Given time more elegant solutions are possible.

To give you a microcosm example companies like Dewalt, Ryobi, and Milkwake are basically sticking a bunch of 18650 cells in a plastic box with a controller and calling it their own propriety battery.

When market standardization takes over it is stable, but these silly "only invented here" strategies need to be defeated first. Look at the double AA battery and its counterparts.

For multiple generations those standards held and anybody who rebelled died. There was no reason not to do the same thing with new battery chemsitry, all we needed to do was standardize charging logic chips, but like I said every company was pulling in their own direction and there was no big playbook to look towards.

That's a fixable problem.

When I saw removable battery they could be entirely modular. Car batteries being a casing with a bunch of standardized small batteries with EEPROM about the chemistry and charge cycles and such that allows the casing charger to know how to use it.

If any cell starts misbehaving cut it off and potentially eject it. Yes it's a lot of engineering effort at the start, but when something is standardized we can build a whole lot of them and that means we can use dedicated production lines so even complicated machines become cheap.

Cars are an excellent example of this fact. They are very complicated machines. Computers even more so. It's completely wrong to look at the cost of ordering 10 novel computers and say "that is the cost of a computer".

Or a one off car (which is like 10 million) and say "that is the cost of a car".

The real question is "how much would it cost per unit if we made a billion of these things".


Doesn't work that way. Aside from the control issues involved, the cost of integrating that into the grid is beyond any nation's ability to pay for it even over say, several centuries.
"the cost of integrating that into the grid is beyond any nations ability to pay for it"

What? With AC you sync the phase and you add power with a slightly higher voltage than the grid. With DC it's even simpler (and we should switch to a DC grid).

There are machines that do this right now. https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-Sta...cphy=9007918&hvtargid=pla-2281435178538&psc=1

That's $120, but if it became standard to the meters to support plug and play generation and buffering then that would be like $10 added cost per meter, again if you make them all the same way it gets cheap. The greatest enemy of efficiency is unnecessary specialization (ask the military logistics planers).


Germany and England are perfect examples of the stupidity of wind and solar. With wind, both experienced recently a prolonged period of what the Germans call Dunkelflaute. That is a prolonged calm where there isn't any wind to be had. Not a few hours or a day or two, but several weeks of calm.

Or, bad weather that makes solar production drop to nothing for days on end.

tumblr_my2mb2shHS1qh3dpqo1_1280.jpg


That's a big problem right there!

Solar and wind are grossly expensive and inefficient. Let's just get rid of them entirely and go with what works: Nuclear backed by natural gas. We could have 80% of our power from nuclear that is stable, efficient, and far greener than solar and wind, backed by 20% using clean burning natural gas to cover fluctuations in the load.
We were talking about batteries buffering peaks with an underlying primary source of nuclear fission.
 
I'm not saying lithium ion is going to replace jet fuel, obviously the energy density of jet fuel is still way better. As a metric for how far battery tech has come though it works.

600 miles? Almost not worth taking a plane (if we had less onerous airports that would not be the case), but if you tried to do that with lead acid batteries in 1970 it would be 50 miles i.e. lucky to get off the ground before the battery overheats. So we see a transition from actually pointless to a niche use case.

Steam could power cars and aircraft too, but we don't do that for a reason. It isn't efficient compared to using hydrocarbon fuels. Same with electric planes. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it.

600 miles with 9 passengers at 240 knots and 10,000 feet altitude. That's massively pathetic compared to a turboprop or jet.
That's a bold statement, the planet is pretty big.

It's true. Estimated reserves are fairly well known. That is, we can estimate pretty closely the entirety of lithium on the planet. Of that, about 25% is recoverable. Simply not enough to go around. Also, as you approach that 25% number, the costs of recovery are going to go way up just as they have for other minerals. Sure, we can recover newly found gold ores where it is profitable at $3000 an ounce, but we're not going to find lumps of gold just lying on the ground like our ancestors did as recently as 200 years ago.
Every thirty years people pointed out that the known oil reserves would run out in 30 years but by the time the doomsday date arrived had found more reserves.

Lithium will be no different.

We even still keep finding gold veins although the concentrations aren't as high as our ancestors enjoyed.

We know about oil reserves that are untapped. They're untapped for a reason: We can't extract them economically. Lithium is the same way. Much of it cannot be extracted economically. As use goes up, that cost of extraction of more marginal and difficult to refine sources will go up too.
Well maybe we can do some calculations on that. Get a ratio of lithium mass to stored charge. Multiply it by the likely lithium available to be mined (although like I said that number has huge error bars on it), and then look at the kind of buffering that a 50x current power grid would need.

In order to make lithium battery storage on the grid a viable thing and give solar and wind the ability to supply power 24/7 you are looking at something like 7 to 14 days of storage for as much as 75% of the power supplied on the grid daily. This allows for lulls in wind, bad weather that drops solar production, and for nighttime use in the case of solar. The batteries would at 10% of today's costs run into the hundreds of trillions installed. We don't need any of that--ZERO--with nuclear and natural gas (both of which are actually renewable unlike wind and solar).
Yea that's not making it easy, but they're doing that because of people fear mongering about the lighting on fire. Given time more elegant solutions are possible.

Tesla did it in part because it prevents third party repair of their batteries. Tesla didn't want independent mechanics and the like fixing their cars far cheaper than their dealers charge.

As for an "elegant" solution. There's none that I know of. Potting is an electronics industry standard going back to the 1940's. Sure, the materials have improved, but the end product is not economically fixable, then or now.
To give you a microcosm example companies like Dewalt, Ryobi, and Milkwake are basically sticking a bunch of 18650 cells in a plastic box with a controller and calling it their own propriety battery.

When market standardization takes over it is stable, but these silly "only invented here" strategies need to be defeated first. Look at the double AA battery and its counterparts.

For multiple generations those standards held and anybody who rebelled died. There was no reason not to do the same thing with new battery chemsitry, all we needed to do was standardize charging logic chips, but like I said every company was pulling in their own direction and there was no big playbook to look towards.

That's a fixable problem.

No, it really isn't. The little lithium cells everybody is using are due to manufacturing inertia. It's often difficult to change what's become standardized on a wide scale. That's why the US hasn't adopted the metric system. It's simply too expensive to change over suddenly. Maybe in a few centuries the US will gradually get there, but it won't be next week.
When I saw removable battery they could be entirely modular. Car batteries being a casing with a bunch of standardized small batteries with EEPROM about the chemistry and charge cycles and such that allows the casing charger to know how to use it.

The fact you need massive amounts of equipment to swap out an EV battery, and that it takes more than a few minutes to do it, is going to be an insoluble problem. Also, the 'one-size-fits-all' requirement would be a likely fail in the market. It isn't going to be a solution.
If any cell starts misbehaving cut it off and potentially eject it. Yes it's a lot of engineering effort at the start, but when something is standardized we can build a whole lot of them and that means we can use dedicated production lines so even complicated machines become cheap.

Gruber Motors already was doing that. It took them about 2 - 3 days to get into a Tesla battery pack and find the failed cell(s). The company also has had several battery fires. They've also found other issues in opening a battery pack that couldn't be repaired like infiltration of moisture that rotted the batteries.

Potting the battery as I pointed out has made that nearly impossible, and Tesla did it more to keep companies like Gruber from fixing their products than any concern about safety.
Cars are an excellent example of this fact. They are very complicated machines. Computers even more so. It's completely wrong to look at the cost of ordering 10 novel computers and say "that is the cost of a computer".

Or a one off car (which is like 10 million) and say "that is the cost of a car".

The real question is "how much would it cost per unit if we made a billion of these things".

Cars are not that complex except for all the added crap necessary to meet some government regulation or another or because of added bling. That I need a smart phone to operate a Tesla, as one example, is asininely stupid.
"the cost of integrating that into the grid is beyond any nations ability to pay for it"

What? With AC you sync the phase and you add power with a slightly higher voltage than the grid. With DC it's even simpler (and we should switch to a DC grid).

The AC v. DC grid idea was settled long, long ago. DC is horribly inefficient when used on a large grid. AC won because it works. With DC you are limited in what you can run as devices. Adding or subtracting loads to a DC system is a major problem that you can't resolve. Conversion of DC to AC adds complexity and costs without any real advantage.
The one place where DC is viable is in transmission of power using ocean or lake bottom cables. DC doesn't couple to the water leading to a serious line loss of power like AC does. In this special case, DC is the way to go because the loss is sufficient that DC becomes economical.

This is the problem with DC in a nutshell:

dcp126a.gif


Voltage changes with changes in the load and you get a voltage loss with each load in the circuit.
There are machines that do this right now. https://www.amazon.com/Inverter-Sta...cphy=9007918&hvtargid=pla-2281435178538&psc=1

That's $120, but if it became standard to the meters to support plug and play generation and buffering then that would be like $10 added cost per meter, again if you make them all the same way it gets cheap. The greatest enemy of efficiency is unnecessary specialization (ask the military logistics planers).



We were talking about batteries buffering peaks with an underlying primary source of nuclear fission.
Inverters on a scale to do major distribution systems just don't fly. For those, dynamic conversion is usually used, that is motor-generator sets.
 
Steam could power cars and aircraft too, but we don't do that for a reason. It isn't efficient compared to using hydrocarbon fuels. Same with electric planes. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it.
Steam isn't a power source, it's a heat engine strategy.

If we weren't afraid of hot nuclear rods steam on cars and aircraft would be superior to hydrocarbon fuels. (we should be afraid of hot nuclear rods but again illustrating a point)

Again I was just using it to illustrate how far batteries have come.


600 miles with 9 passengers at 240 knots and 10,000 feet altitude. That's massively pathetic compared to a turboprop or jet.
True, because the energy density by mass of lithium ion is below jet fuel.


It's true. Estimated reserves are fairly well known. That is, we can estimate pretty closely the entirety of lithium on the planet. Of that, about 25% is recoverable. Simply not enough to go around. Also, as you approach that 25% number, the costs of recovery are going to go way up just as they have for other minerals. Sure, we can recover newly found gold ores where it is profitable at $3000 an ounce, but we're not going to find lumps of gold just lying on the ground like our ancestors did as recently as 200 years ago.
Well lets go to wikipedia and see what you disagree with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium:

The total lithium content of seawater is very large and is estimated as 230 billion tonnes, where the element exists at a relatively constant concentration of 0.14 to 0.25 parts per million (ppm)

Chile is estimated (2020) to have the largest reserves by far (9.2 million tonnes)

The US Geological Survey (USGS) estimated worldwide identified lithium reserves in 2020 and 2021 to be 17 million and 21 million tonnes, respectively.

Of course me saying "I bet they find more" isn't going to be something you can disprove or I can prove, yet still: I bet they find more.

Now, even without that, 21 million tonnes sounds like a lot to me; especially when it's such a light element. 230 billion tonnes sounds like more than we could possibly use, and before you say "but we can't get it" remember we're talking about a hypothetical future where we stop wasting our time with bullshit and build some serious nuclear reactors.

If the impediment is energy (and it almost always is) then we can get at that dissolved lithium. In fact there are countries right now that are desalinating sea water just for drinking water. At the very least we could be extracting lithium from water already going through such a process.

Suppose we build some plants for general extraction of dissolved elements? There are probably some other interesting ones.


In order to make lithium battery storage on the grid a viable thing and give solar and wind the ability to supply power 24/7 you are looking at something like 7 to 14 days of storage for as much as 75% of the power supplied on the grid daily.
I was not referring to solar and wind. I was referring to the inevitable variability in consumption even given a constant power supply. Smoothing the demand with buffers will always be advantageous. If we didn't then the reactors would need to be oversized and have the ability to spool up and down quickly, or there would need to be fast reacting auxiliary sources like jet turbine generators.

Given a world where electrical power is already taken over everywhere it can practically be used there is no reason to not take advantage of all those batteries for demand smoothing. It's not that fast reacting auxiliaries are so terrible, it's just a much more resilient (reliable) and potentially even cheaper to integrate batteries into the grid.


This allows for lulls in wind, bad weather that drops solar production, and for nighttime use in the case of solar. The batteries would at 10% of today's costs run into the hundreds of trillions installed. We don't need any of that--ZERO--with nuclear and natural gas (both of which are actually renewable unlike wind and solar).
Even though the context was fission and not wind and solar, you're missing a few things here.

If we were really to try and use inconsistent power sources primarily we would need a ultra low loss global grid so we could reduce the random variation with volume.

In the simplest case using the solar panels on the day side to power both day and night use.

This isn't as impossible as many people imagine, viable superconducting (or near superconducting) stretches have already been installed. They cost a lot to build and maintain but two such connections could solve continental power problems so they would easily justify their cost.
 
Tesla did it in part because it prevents third party repair of their batteries. Tesla didn't want independent mechanics and the like fixing their cars far cheaper than their dealers charge.
Yea, and that. The exact same bullshit would arise if people had tried to make lead acid batteries impossible to replace or glued alkaline batteries into their machines and expected you to come to their specific vendor to have the replaced.

Problems created by these irrational manipulative behavior do not reflect ill on the underlying technology or strategies thereof.


As for an "elegant" solution. There's none that I know of. Potting is an electronics industry standard going back to the 1940's. Sure, the materials have improved, but the end product is not economically fixable, then or now.
Of course it is. I have a computer right now where the graphics card is not potted to the motherboard.

If we want it modular, we can have it modular. Potting is a shortcut for a host of mechanical and corrosion requirements, nothing more.


No, it really isn't. The little lithium cells everybody is using are due to manufacturing inertia. It's often difficult to change what's become standardized on a wide scale.
Good, more standardization is what we need. Them hiding it behind their injection molded plastic and gluing it in with epoxy is the problem.


That's why the US hasn't adopted the metric system. It's simply too expensive to change over suddenly.
Officially it has, and if manufacturers and machine shops aren't adopting metric it's because people like you are giving them an excuse. Mechanics shops all over the USA have metric tools because they needed to fix cars with metric bolts.


The fact you need massive amounts of equipment to swap out an EV battery, and that it takes more than a few minutes to do it, is going to be an insoluble problem.
Nah, it can be done by an automated system in 15 seconds. Sure systems that fast won't be cheap, but if they're built right they'll last a century so the cost can be deferred.


Also, the 'one-size-fits-all' requirement would be a likely fail in the market. It isn't going to be a solution.
If one size doesn't fit all then make two sizes (or in this case make two slots for a smaller size). The problem is when there are as many sizes as there are brands and every brand owner is trying to make it hard to replace or repair.


If any cell starts misbehaving cut it off and potentially eject it. Yes it's a lot of engineering effort at the start, but when something is standardized we can build a whole lot of them and that means we can use dedicated production lines so even complicated machines become cheap.
Gruber Motors already was doing that. It took them about 2 - 3 days to get into a Tesla battery pack and find the failed cell(s). The company also has had several battery fires. They've also found other issues in opening a battery pack that couldn't be repaired like infiltration of moisture that rotted the batteries.
Trying to repair a battery (cell bank) that wasn't designed to be repaired and apparently wasn't reliably sealed against water is not at all the same thing as designing a cell bank to be able to individually assess cells and eject them without human presence. Needless to say if they can do that it would be pretty easy for a human to remove a malfunctioning cell as well.


Potting the battery as I pointed out has made that nearly impossible, and Tesla did it more to keep companies like Gruber from fixing their products than any concern about safety.
Right, so it has no implications about the plausibility of what I'm talking about.


Cars are not that complex except for all the added crap necessary to meet some government regulation or another or because of added bling. That I need a smart phone to operate a Tesla, as one example, is asininely stupid.
I see you haven't taken apart a car. Cars are very complex. Even without features like automatic door locks, automatic windows, defrosting mirrors and windows, air conditioning units, radios, back up cameras, windshield wipers, turn signals (which everybody expects and wants) there are very complicated transmissions, coolant loops, the fuel injection computers are complicated replacements for complicated mechanical fuel injectors, the internals of the engine block can get very complicated.

The simplest car made in the last ten years is 100 times more complex than a typically constructed USA house. Yet the car is cheaper, because that is the difference between mass production and having humans show up and build everything by hand.


The AC v. DC grid idea was settled long, long ago.
Things have changed. AC motors are the only use case that naturally takes advantage of AC and while once they were 95% of the (non-resistive heating) load they are now like 15%.


DC is horribly inefficient when used on a large grid.
No it isn't. There is no inherent difference in efficiency. Actually there is an inherent disadvantage to AC in that you need to be careful to keep the lines away from inductive materials lest you lose power to parasitic inductance.


AC won because it works.
AC won because it works well for AC motors and it's easier to control without transistors. I pointed out our loads are no longer dominated by motors and will now add that we have transistors and it's now essentially unheard of to use the old mechanisms of AC control systems.


With DC you are limited in what you can run as devices.
With AC you are limited in what you can run as devices.

The question is whether we use natural AC devices more than natural DC devices. The answer is we use natural DC devices more and find ourselves constantly rectifying AC to do it.

If we used DC we would find ourselves constantly using transistors to reconstruct an AC signal for motors, but we would still save power because the majority of the load would be saved an unnecessary transformation loss.


This is the problem with DC in a nutshell:

dcp126a.gif


Voltage changes with changes in the load and you get a voltage loss with each load in the circuit.
What led you to believe that Ohm's law is a problem unique to DC loads?
 
Yes it will. The earth produces hydrocarbons via geological activity in super-massive quantities. This is why we didn't run out in the 30's, the 40's, the 50's, the 60's, the 70's, the 80's, the 90's, the 2000's, the 2010's, and why now we have "more than ever."

Look up Fischer-Tropsh process.

Hydrocarbons (petroleum and natural gas) are earth's best, cheapest and most reliable renewable fuel, and combustion engines are the most fuel efficient. We should be focusing in this area ... until fusion becomes feasible, if ever.

That isn't how oil forms in nature. Just sayin'.
 
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