Reality check on electric cars

Not really. Not at all, actually.
Correct. The earth manufactures hydrocarbons through the Fischer-Tropsh process, from the abundant hydrogen and carbon found in the earth's crust and mantle.

We know what it is from biomarkers which show it came from algae or bacterial materials.
You're just regurgitating Marxist propaganda that you were ordered to believe while you were bent over furniture being reamed. There are no "biomarkers" and hydrocarbons are formed and acquired from depths well below any fossil record.

You should start questioning what you are ordered to believe.

We can dig up the shales that act as the SOURCE rock
The shales are not the source; they are what contain the seeping hydrocarbons and form the wells.

and characterize the organics in that (I did that personally for a couple years)
Were you wearing a clown suit and juggling several balls in the center ring while you did so?
 
WRONG. EVs use almost twice the energy to move the same distance as a similar sized gasoline car.
EVs are NOT 'Zero Emission Cars' either.

Power plants typically burn some type of fuel to run their generators. That has waste heat which must be passed to the cold section of the engine.
The generator also generates waste heat, due to eddy currents in the core. Generators are cooled for this reason.
The transformers are also generating waste heat, and must be cooled (they are oil cooled, using fans and radiators).
The transmission line loses energy all the way along the line due to leakage and waste heat (current in any wire heats the wire).
The substation transformers also generate waste heat and are oil cooled.
The distribution lines also produce waste heat, even more per mile than the transmission lines did (due to higher current for the power transmitted).
The pole transformer also generates waste heat and must be oil cooled (by convection this time).
Charging a battery or discharging a battery heats it. The EV battery is liquid cooled for this reason (water-glycol...which should be changed from time to time!).
The motor also generates waste heat when it runs. It's oil cooled (you DO need to change that oil from time to time!) using an internal pump and radiator.

It's more efficient to simply burn the gasoline in the car to move the car. The waste heat from the engine can be used to heat the cabin, and the rest is transferred to the cold section of the engine (exhaust system and tailpipe). Gasoline cars are much lighter as well, have greater power, and greater towing capacity (no heavy battery to cart around!).

Today's FADEC engines can achieve an efficiency approaching 40%. That's damn good...FAR better than an EV with it's support system to charge the battery! The gasoline engine can be refueled in just a few minutes as well, effectively giving the vehicle infinite range (since you can carry extra gasoline with you if you need to!).

Gasoline vehicles work FAR better in harsh conditions as well, such as cold environments, very hot environments, or into remote areas and off road.

Fallacy of the Fallopian Glurge. Mantra 401b. Lame.

Engines don't achieve anything. Engines don't burn anything. Gasoline isn't real.
 
Processes aren't "well known".
It is well known, Sybil. You can't make it go away.
WW1 wasn't a thing.
Guess you don't believe Tolkien existed either, since he wrote quite a bit of his material while sitting in the trenches during WW1.
Conditions don't exist underground.
Conditions exist everywhere, Sybil.
Fallacy of the Sputum Sucking Cock Whore. Mantra 5002A lame.
You're still triggered and on tilt.
 
Correct. The earth manufactures hydrocarbons through the Fischer-Tropsh process,

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It is well known, Sybil. You can't make it go away.

Guess you don't believe Tolkien existed either, since he wrote quite a bit of his material while sitting in the trenches during WW1.

Conditions exist everywhere, Sybil.

You're still triggered and on tilt.

Fallacy of the impacted turd burglar. Mantra 501b. Lame.
 
It is well known, Sybil. You can't make it go away.

Guess you don't believe Tolkien existed either, since he wrote quite a bit of his material while sitting in the trenches during WW1.

Conditions exist everywhere, Sybil.

You're still triggered and on tilt.

There's no such a person as "Tolkien". Never was. LOL.
 
... because it was, and is, a common misconception to believe that the earth's supply of hydrocarbons is somehow a fixed quanitity, having been created hundreds of millions of years ago. It turns out that the earth manufactures hydrocarbons in massive quantities continuously through natural geological activity, via the Fischer-Tropsh process/synthesis, from the abundant carbon and hydrogen in the earth's crust and mantle. Hydrocarbons do not require millions of years to form, but only require hours, given the right conditions, which occur naturally at the edges of tectonic plates.


They aren't reserves. They are wells of hydrocarbons fabricated via the Fischer-Tropsh synthesis by the earth through normal geological activity.


Lithium is different. It is a fixed quantity. I don't know how much there is but the cost of recovery will increase and reserves will be depleted.
There is quite a lot of lithium, but it's expensive and very damaging to sensitive areas to mine and purify it. Most lithium is obtained through a brine purification process (which uses a LOT of water what will be polluted with sulfuric acid in desert areas, where water is hard to come by, and the process takes years).

The purified lithium ore is then shipped to China, where it is refined into lithium metal and made into batteries (by combining plastics, cobalt, aluminum, and other materials, then shipped to various places for use in cars. Car manufacturers than assemble these into packs and installed in their vehicles. The initial charge/discharge cycle, done at the car manufacturer, loses about half the total capacity of the battery, which is the 'new' condition marketed to consumers.

The stuff is a bit like magnesium, which is usually teased out from seawater, and wants to return to the state from whence it came (low grade lithium salts).
 
Daylight is rapidly becoming a solid contender in the race to become the latest Ruler 14 poster child, it appears.

14. The treatment of Incendiary Troll accounts. Definition: Posting solely for reaction, to harass, or stalk. Whether single or secondary, those accounts posting solely for reaction and/or harassment and not contributing to the discussion in any way post at the sole discretion of the JPP Admin Team and may be removed at any moment.
 
Daylight is rapidly becoming a solid contender in the race to become the latest Ruler 14 poster child, it appears.

14. The treatment of Incendiary Troll accounts. Definition: Posting solely for reaction, to harass, or stalk. Whether single or secondary, those accounts posting solely for reaction and/or harassment and not contributing to the discussion in any way post at the sole discretion of the JPP Admin Team and may be removed at any moment.

There is no such thing as a Troll Account.

Fallacy of the Infected Pants. Mantra 4a lame
 
As opposed to gasoline 15 years into mainstream adoption?
Gasoline doesn't burn like a lithium fire. A lithium fire burns like a firework. It's a class C fire, until all (or most) cells are involved, at which point it reverts to a class A fire and you can put it out with water. Of course, by then, the car is destroyed, and anything around it (like your house!) is destroyed as well. EV fires can happen during the charging cycle, when the car is parked in the garage, or through the effects of corrosion (such as road salts, flooding, etc; or through physical damage (accident, high centering, etc).

Gasoline just burns. Yes, it's a class B fire in and of itself, but it's usually the CAR, not the gasoline that you put out (that's a class A fire).
Sounds like an engineering problem.
No way to engineer it out. The battery pack is simply too large, and a single damaged cell means the entire pack must be replaced. This is about $25000 or so to do this job, so insurance companies just write off the car.
 
Gasoline doesn't burn like a lithium fire. A lithium fire burns like a firework. It's a class C fire, until all (or most) cells are involved, at which point it reverts to a class A fire and you can put it out with water. Of course, by then, the car is destroyed, and anything around it (like your house!) is destroyed as well. EV fires can happen during the charging cycle, when the car is parked in the garage, or through the effects of corrosion (such as road salts, flooding, etc; or through physical damage (accident, high centering, etc).

Gasoline just burns. Yes, it's a class B fire in and of itself, but it's usually the CAR, not the gasoline that you put out (that's a class A fire).

No way to engineer it out. The battery pack is simply too large, and a single damaged cell means the entire pack must be replaced. This is about $25000 or so to do this job, so insurance companies just write off the car.
Fire doesn’t exist. Batteries don’t come in packs.

Fallacy of the twisted colon. Mantra 45b
 
I'm not saying lithium ion is going to replace jet fuel, obviously the energy density of jet fuel is still way better. As a metric for how far battery tech has come though it works.
Lithium-ion battery technology is 1980's technology. EVs are still stuck using this old technology. Many EV believers are Luddites.
Gasoline engines have improved VASTLY since 1980!
600 miles? Almost not worth taking a plane (if we had less onerous airports that would not be the case), but if you tried to do that with lead acid batteries in 1970 it would be 50 miles i.e. lucky to get off the ground before the battery overheats. So we see a transition from actually pointless to a niche use case.
Nope. The battery is too heavy. It is not practical to build an aircraft that can carry a useful payload using lithium ion batteries and electric motors.
That's a bold statement, the planet is pretty big.

Every thirty years people pointed out that the known oil reserves would run out in 30 years but by the time the doomsday date arrived had found more reserves.
There are no reserves. Oil is formed continuously.
Lithium will be no different.
Lithium ore is plentiful, but is expensive to obtain. The mining and purification process are destructive to sensitive areas like deserts.
We even still keep finding gold veins although the concentrations aren't as high as our ancestors enjoyed.
Actually, they ARE.

Gold mining still produces gold in concentrations as before. The difference is that gold is not used as currency in the United States, thanks to the Democrats...which stole the gold (and build Fort Knox to store it in!), and issued fiat currency with no commodity backing (hence, the inflation we see!).
Well maybe we can do some calculations on that. Get a ratio of lithium mass to stored charge. Multiply it by the likely lithium available to be mined (although like I said that number has huge error bars on it), and then look at the kind of buffering that a 50x current power grid would need.
A battery is not energy generation. It is more like a bucket of power. They are also heavy and expensive.
Yea that's not making it easy, but they're doing that because of people fear mongering about the lighting on fire.
Lithium-ion batteries burn like a firework. Fires can start during charging, or just sitting there after charging, or if the battery is damaged in any way.
Given time more elegant solutions are possible.
None. It's the nature of lithium. Ya canna' change the laws of physics cap'n!
To give you a microcosm example companies like Dewalt, Ryobi, and Milkwake are basically sticking a bunch of 18650 cells in a plastic box with a controller and calling it their own propriety battery.
This practice is certainly irritating. I've standardized on the Baur system.
When market standardization takes over it is stable, but these silly "only invented here" strategies need to be defeated first. Look at the double AA battery and its counterparts.
AA is a size, not a type of battery. There are AA lithium metal batteries, AA lithium-ion batteries, AA alkaline batteries, and AA Nicad batteries. The type you typically buy in the grocery store is alkaline type (using a paste for the electrolyte that has a pH around 8). The electrodes for this type of battery are carbon and zinc. They are not rechargeable. An AA sized alkaline battery is capable of 2 amp/hrs and allows a current of up to 2A (due to internal resistance of the battery itself).
For multiple generations those standards held and anybody who rebelled died. There was no reason not to do the same thing with new battery chemsitry, all we needed to do was standardize charging logic chips, but like I said every company was pulling in their own direction and there was no big playbook to look towards.
Okay...let's look at battery chemistry.

Lithium is the lightest of the metals. The lithium-ion complex has an electron volt rating of 3.7V. This means lithium-ion is the lightest possible battery for the power it can produce when fully charged (41.2kJ/gm). Gasoline is 44.4kJ/gm, but it's not a battery.

Other battery chemistry is necessarily going to be heavier than the already heavy lithium batteries!

There is no standard logic chip of any kind.

That's a fixable problem.
What are you 'fixing'?
When I saw removable battery they could be entirely modular. Car batteries being a casing with a bunch of standardized small batteries with EEPROM about the chemistry and charge cycles and such that allows the casing charger to know how to use it.
Charging those batteries still means you have to put the same power into them to charge them. Removing an EV car battery is no simple undertaking. They are extremely heavy, delicate, and a serious fire hazard during the entire operation. Removing them requires specially equipped shops (read: Dealers). Such batteries are also liquid cooled. Those lines have be drained than filled by vacuum process just to change the battery.

It's not practical.
If any cell starts misbehaving cut it off and potentially eject it. Yes it's a lot of engineering effort at the start, but when something is standardized we can build a whole lot of them and that means we can use dedicated production lines so even complicated machines become cheap.

Cars are an excellent example of this fact. They are very complicated machines. Computers even more so. It's completely wrong to look at the cost of ordering 10 novel computers and say "that is the cost of a computer".

Or a one off car (which is like 10 million) and say "that is the cost of a car".

The real question is "how much would it cost per unit if we made a billion of these things".
More than they cost now. There is not enough material.
"the cost of integrating that into the grid is beyond any nations ability to pay for it"

What? With AC you sync the phase and you add power with a slightly higher voltage than the grid.
With insufficient generating capacity, grid frequency will drop, resulting in a collapse of the grid if not corrected within a few minutes.
Adding generating capacity is only part of the problem. You have to get all that power transmitted to the chargers which means installing many more transmission lines, upgrading distribution lines, and all the extra equipment to support it.
With DC it's even simpler (and we should switch to a DC grid).
Go look at why DC is not used for power distribution anymore.
 
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