Reality check on electric cars

[Into the Night]

Nice to see you are arguing against yourself.

Where?

 

[Nordberg]

Electric cars are cheaper than ICEs. https://www.cars.com/articles/here-are-the-11-cheapest-electric-vehicles-you-can-buy-439849/ They also get about 7500 to 10 K tax breaks. So they are not close. They also save you gas money every day. They do not require frequent expensive maintenance and oil changes either. Anyone thinking should buy electric. This does not even include how much going electric does for pollution and people's health. There are far fewer parts to break. Breaks last much ,much longer.

 

[Into the Night]

Electric cars are cheaper than ICEs.

No, they aren't. They are more expensive. A lot more expensive.

https://www.cars.com/articles/here-are-the-11-cheapest-electric-vehicles-you-can-buy-439849/

Cherry picking fallacy.

They also get about 7500 to 10 K tax breaks.

Communism doesn't work.

So they are not close.

Correct. They are much more expensive.

They also save you gas money every day.

You also waste a lot of time charging them.

They do not require frequent expensive maintenance and oil changes either.

Oil changes are not expensive. No new car requires expensive maintenance.

Anyone thinking should buy electric.

Nah. My cars have to work all day. Electric isn't practical.

This does not even include how much going electric does for pollution and people's health.

Okay. Let's talk about the huge strip mines for lithium ore. Let's talk about the large amount of sulfur compounds to process this ore. Let's talk about the child slavery used to mine cobalt. Let's talk about shipping large amounts of these materials overseas, manufacturing the batteries, and shipping them overseas again just to make the batteries! Let's talk about the impracticality of recycling these batteries, and the landfill they produce. Let's talk about the battery fires, in some cases occurring while the occupants are locked in their own cars!

There are far fewer parts to break. Breaks last much ,much longer.

Unfortunately, corrosion can easily start a battery fire, DESTROYING THE CAR WHILE IT'S JUST SITTING THERE.
Two cargo ships have been lost at sea due to EV battery fires starting in their hold. The ships and their entire cargo was lost.

You also seem to forget that most of the power plants you charge your car from use oil, natural gas, or coal.

Few people work on electric cars due to the fire hazard. Everything is basically a dealer repair. *expensive!*

 

[Saint Guinefort]

No, they aren't. They are more expensive. A lot more expensive.

Not really.

Communism doesn't work.

Who said it does?

Correct. They are much more expensive.

Wrong.

You also waste a lot of time charging them.

Yes and no. Unlike you I can leave my car charging overnight. I understand being an Uber/Lyft driver you have to keep moving all the time. Good luck finding a full-time job.

Nah. My cars have to work all day. Electric isn't practical.

Because those UberEats orders don't deliver themselves!

Okay. Let's talk about the huge strip mines for lithium ore.

You don't know anything about Li mining. Just STFU.

Let's talk about the large amount of sulfur compounds to process this ore

Tell us about it. Are you familiar with waste from coal mining and coal combustion? I didn't think so.

. Let's talk about the child slavery used to mine cobalt.

Cobalt is used in a lot of things. Including OIL REFINING.

Let's talk about shipping large amounts of these materials overseas, manufacturing the batteries, and shipping them overseas again just to make the batteries

You don't know how ICE vehicles are made, do you?

You also seem to forget that most of the power plants you charge your car from use oil, natural gas, or coal.

I charge on my solar at home.

 

[Into the Night]

Not really.
Who said it does?
Wrong.

Argument of the Stone fallacy. Blatantly ignoring what is won't make it go away.

Yes and no. Unlike you I can leave my car charging overnight. I understand being an Uber/Lyft driver you have to keep moving all the time. Good luck finding a full-time job.
Because those UberEats orders don't deliver themselves!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You think I drive for someplace like Uber or Lyft?????!? No, I'm hauling product from my company and supplies for my company.

You don't know anything about Li mining. Just STFU.

You are describing yourself again. Inversion fallacy.

Tell us about it.

Sure. After strip mining, the ore is put into a brine solution with acid to leach out the metal. Sulfuric acid is usually used. The resulting products are large amounts of sulfur compounds as waste product, and of course the lithium metal. It takes quite a bit of acid to get just a little bit of metal.

Are you familiar with waste from coal mining and coal combustion? I didn't think so.

Yes. After crushing, the coal is introduced into a flotation chamber, where rocks and other similar impurities are removed. The cleaned coal is then shipped by rail or truck to end users. The tailings from the washing and mining process are stored as landfill on the mining site.

Burning coal produces CO2 and nothing else, assuming an efficient fire is used. Some coal contains impurities of sulfur, which is removed from the fumes going up the stack using a washing process. The resulting sulfur is sold to industry. What goes out the stack is waste steam and CO2.

Cobalt is used in a lot of things. Including OIL REFINING.

Oil refining does not require cobalt.

You don't know how ICE vehicles are made, do you?

Yes. The process involves many steps, none of which require lithium or cobalt.
In general iron and aluminum are melted, alloyed, and cast into molds or extruded into bars and sheets. Stamping presses form sheets into body panels. Engines may use an iron block, or an aluminum block with steel inserts. The pistons are aluminum. After molding, rods, cams, and crank are hardened steel (typically case hardened by nitration), then ground to precise dimensions. Most fasteners are steel bolts. Most gaskets are either paper (reinforced with plastic and possibly steel edging), or in older cars, cork. Induction parts are mostly plastic these days. Exhaust tubing is a nickel alloy and so is the muffler. Paints are 2 part epoxies, generally, and baked on. Some alkyd paints are used instead. Interiors are generally plastic, leather, and cloth.

The assembly process is by assembly lines. The more dangerous parts, such as welding body panels or frames, is done now by robots.

I charge on my solar at home.

Lie. Solar does not provide near enough to charge an electric car in any reasonable length of time. You also claimed you charge your car at night. Solar doesn't work at night, dumbass.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You think I drive for someplace like Uber or Lyft?????!? No, I'm hauling product from my company and supplies for my company.

A truck driver? Good job.

Appropriate for someone like you I should think. You probably know a lot about driving a truck.

Sure. After strip mining, the ore is put into a brine solution with acid to leach out the metal.

That's only for hard rock Li mining (ie spodumene or some other rock source like lepidolite etc.). A LOT of Li can be "mined" from evaporite deposits which are just salt. You can "mine" it with a bit of hot water. It's not outpatient surgery, but then mining all the metals for YOUR car and drilling for all the oil for YOUR car is also environmentally damaging.

And yeah, a lot of that metal in your car came at the expense of what is called "acid mine drainage" which is also environmentally damaging.

Yes. After crushing, the coal is introduced into a flotation chamber, where rocks and other similar impurities are removed. The cleaned coal

"cleaned". You make it sound like the coal is better now. Sorry but that isn't how it really works.

Burning coal produces CO2 and nothing else,

You are so wrong it's not even funny. Coal plants often produce more radioactive exposure than nuclear power plants!!! There's so much toxic metal and shit in coal and coal ash that it is always making pollution. It's nearly impossible to "clean" that coal up. If you get rid of the SOx and NOx you have to do it with expensive scrubbers.

I wish you knew more about coal chemistry.

assuming an efficient fire is used. Some coal contains impurities of sulfur, which is removed from the fumes going up the stack using a washing process.

Nope. It is removed through a SCRUBBER, not a "washing". It requires that the gases from the combustion go through a bed of something to absorb the SOx

Oil refining does not require cobalt.

As per usual, you are WRONG

Lie. Solar does not provide near enough to charge an electric car in any reasonable length of time.

I do it every couple weeks. Sorry if reality doesn't comport with your usual lack of understanding of anything.

 

[Into the Night]

A truck driver? Good job.

Appropriate for someone like you I should think. You probably know a lot about driving a truck.

While I do, I mostly hire it done these days. I have a staff, you see.

That's only for hard rock Li mining (ie spodumene or some other rock source like lepidolite etc.). A LOT of Li can be "mined" from evaporite deposits which are just salt. You can "mine" it with a bit of hot water.

Nope. Still have to leach it.

It's not outpatient surgery, but then mining all the metals for YOUR car and drilling for all the oil for YOUR car is also environmentally damaging.

Define 'environmentally damaging'. Buzzword fallacy. BTW, did you know that EV's also require that metal to be mined?

And yeah, a lot of that metal in your car came at the expense of what is called "acid mine drainage" which is also environmentally damaging.

Nah. Don't need it for iron, aluminum, or copper mining.

"cleaned". You make it sound like the coal is better now. Sorry but that isn't how it really works.

That is how it really works.

You are so wrong it's not even funny.

You are describing yourself, except I think it's funny.

Coal plants often produce more radioactive exposure than nuclear power plants!!!

Coal is not radioactive. People that work in nuclear power plants are normally not exposed to radiation.

There's so much toxic metal and shit in coal

Be afraid of your computer. Be very afraid. There's metal in there! Be afraid of your EV too. There's metal in there! Coal is not a metal.

and coal ash that it is always making pollution.

Define 'pollution'. Buzzword fallacy.

It's nearly impossible to "clean" that coal up.

It's easy. It's usually done right at the mine.

If you get rid of the SOx and NOx you have to do it with expensive scrubbers.

No NOx. Scrubbers are cheap.

I wish you knew more about coal chemistry.

I know enough.

Nope. It is removed through a SCRUBBER, not a "washing".

A scrubber IS a washing, dumbass.

It requires that the gases from the combustion go through a bed of something to absorb the SOx

Yeah. Water.

As per usual, you are WRONG

There is no cobalt in a catalytic converter. They are made of palladium (some use platinum or rhodium instead) and an outer shell of nickel alloy. These useless devices were required by DEMOCRATS.

I do it every couple weeks.

Lie. Not enough watts.

Sorry if reality doesn't comport with your usual lack of understanding of anything.

Nah. You're just describing yourself again. You're just mindlessly parroting scripture from the Church of Green. You're a fundamentalist.
You are believer in the Church of Global Warming the the Church of Covid as well. I imagine you still believe in the Church of the Ozone Hole also.

I know what you are. Your bulverism changes none of it.

 

[Nordberg]

How absurd calling anything green a church. It is actually based on science. It is your guys who have a church because you believe without evidence. The more a guy hates EVs the more he is certain. They believe it is the people who drive them and have real-life experience who are not qualified. If you seek a fair analysis it requires hating EV as a start.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

How absurd calling anything green a church. It is actually based on science. It is your guys who have a church because you believe without evidence. The more a guy hates EVs the more he is certain. They believe it is the people who drive them and have real-life experience who are not qualified. If you seek a fair analysis it requires hating EV as a start.

Actually, most of the Left's Green agenda isn't based on sound science or engineering. Much of it does approach a religion in many aspects too.

 

[Into the Night]

How absurd calling anything green a church.

The Church of Green is a fundamentalist style religion.

It is actually based on science.

Religion is not science.

It is your guys who have a church because you believe without evidence.

You are describing yourself.

The more a guy hates EVs the more he is certain.

The more a guy hates the ICE the more he is certain.

They believe it is the people who drive them and have real-life experience who are not qualified.

Lying about how you charge your car or what is required to make the batteries or denying the fire hazard these cars have is not 'qualification'. It is lying.

If you seek a fair analysis it requires hating EV as a start.

Paradox. Irrational.

 

[Into the Night]

Actually, most of the Left's Green agenda isn't based on sound science or engineering. Much of it does approach a religion in many aspects too.

The Church of Green bases it's religion on hate. This is where the 'overpopulation' crowd lives. This is the religion that hates America. It hates any product that sells well. It lives in an artificial green unicorn kind of world, based on the 'ideal', which is just the same as any other argument for communism or socialism. Their 'solutions' for the perceived 'problems' they can't even define are always fascist or communist 'solutions'.

The Church of Green stems from the Church of Karl Marx.

There is no science in this religion. They routinely deny history, math, and engineering. The live in a fear of their own making. They are prisoners in their own minds. They routinely deny and discard theories of science as well, including the laws of thermodynamics, Kirchoff's law, acid-base chemistry, Gibb's law, oxy-reduction chemistry, material densities, and denial of the work of Heitler and London's theory of bonding.

The math they deny is statistical math, probability math, and random number mathematics; making up 'trends' or statistical 'summaries' to predict the future (which is not possible, even if they WERE real summaries.

They live in fear of power lines too, thinking that electricity is somehow 'harmful' to human beings just by being near a power line. They also do not understand anything about electricity, radio, or light.

They have no concept of nuclear energy either, not even uncontrolled fission or fusion, such as a bomb.

Most are hoplophobics, fearing guns.

They treat common lead and lead compounds like it was glowing plutonium. They treat mercury and mercury compounds the same way. Pretty much any chemical they do not understand is treated in this way.

Remember the Church of Global Warming stems directly from the Church of Green.

They believe that energy for an EV's just magickally comes from the battery. They are completely blind to what it takes to charge such a battery in a reasonable length of time. They are completely unaware of where the electricity for everything in their house comes from. They do not even understand Ohm's law. They just assume that energy comes out of nothing.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

They just assume that energy comes out of nothing.

No, they think energy comes out of the plug on the wall and hamburger comes from a grocery store...

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Actually, most of the Left's Green agenda isn't based on sound science or engineering. Much of it does approach a religion in many aspects too.

Can you provide an example of what you claim isn't based on sound science or engineering? I could use a good laugh.

It's funny how after having refuted your idiotic claims over and over with actual math you keep coming back to make them without providing any actual math or science to back up what you are claiming.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

No, they think energy comes out of the plug on the wall and hamburger comes from a grocery store...

Does it make you feel all superior to make claims that you can't back up?

How many days did you get up at 5am to feed cows, pigs or chickens? I wonder if you can tell us how many teats a cow has without looking it up on google.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Can you provide an example of what you claim isn't based on sound science or engineering? I could use a good laugh.

It's funny how after having refuted your idiotic claims over and over with actual math you keep coming back to make them without providing any actual math or science to back up what you are claiming.

A simple one is the claim that solar and wind can power society, and can do it at a lower cost than conventional generation. This Leftist (usually) claim completely ignores reality.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

A simple one is the claim that solar and wind can power society, and can do it at a lower cost than conventional generation. This Leftist (usually) claim completely ignores reality.

Solar and wind have more than enough energy to power our society. Whether we have the current technology and will to do so is something else entirely. The sun provides enough power in one hour to power the world's current yearly total energy usage from all sources.

Converting that power to something we can use is the only question. As I have already pointed out more than once with math, the cost of solar with batteries is low enough that it can currently compete with other sources. Technology keeps moving forward and as battery technology changes and gets cheaper we will probably achieve that. Not next year and probably not in 10 years but within 50 years it will be the most likely result of our current advances. Natural gas and nuclear will only get more expensive over time. Solar and wind will keep getting cheaper. They have no fuel costs over their lifespan once installed.

Customers in Colorado and Minnesota will be paying an extra $300-$400 for the one week freeze in Texas a a couple of years ago.

The company said it spent an additional $500 million on gas that week in February, and it has asked Minnesota’s utility commission for permission to add a surcharge to customers’ bills. The surcharge not only seeks to recoup the additional money CenterPoint spent on natural gas, it also includes 8.75 percent interest. The company expects that each customer would shoulder a burden of $300 to $400.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...sotans-to-pay-for-texas-deep-freeze-problems/

Electricity costs are also going up because natural gas is used at some electric generating facilities. The average household bill will see an increase in their electric bill of about 2%.

I guess you should call the energy companies liars.

Natural gas costs to impact Texas electricity bills

Higher prices for generator fuel will be offset by new wind farm savings in 2021

AMARILLO, Texas (Sept 28, 2020) – After months of historic lows, costs for natural gas that fuels almost half the region’s electricity production have gone up and will increase bills for Xcel Energy’s Texas customers, but only for a short time before savings from a new wind farm are expected to bring those costs back down in early 2021.

https://tx.my.xcelenergy.com/s/abou...lectricity-bills-MCM2VLFWLHNZFV7GJSX3JQRSIOJQ

Just as many Coloradans are turning on their heating systems, the Colorado Public Utilities Commission is about to rule on an Xcel Energy gas-rate case that would raise rates for consumers, as well as potentially approve a new Renewable Energy Plan, which wouldn’t.

https://www.westword.com/news/xcel-puc-energy-bills-rising-15180035

Maybe you should come and join the rest of us in the 21st century where renewable energy is getting cheaper than gas.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

A simple one is the claim that solar and wind can power society, and can do it at a lower cost than conventional generation. This Leftist (usually) claim completely ignores reality.

To recap. You didn't provide any science or engineering. You simply regurgitated vacuous talking points that aren't supported by the real world experience.

 

[Into the Night]

Can you provide an example of what you claim isn't based on sound science or engineering? I could use a good laugh.

The EV. RQAA.

It's funny how after having refuted your idiotic claims over and over

You haven't. Assumption of victory fallacy.

with actual math

You have used no math.

you keep coming back to make them without providing any actual math or science to back up what you are claiming.

You have used no math. You not using any theory of science. T.A. Gardner at least understands Ohm's law, which you apparently ignore.

 

[Into the Night]

No, they think energy comes out of the plug on the wall and hamburger comes from a grocery store...

Like I just said.

 

[Into the Night]

Does it make you feel all superior to make claims that you can't back up?

Void argument fallacy.

How many days did you get up at 5am to feed cows, pigs or chickens? I wonder if you can tell us how many teats a cow has without looking it up on google.

Pivot fallacy. What has this got to do with electric cars?