Republican Requires People to Have Health Care!!! OMG!
- Thread starter ib1yysguy
- Start date
This is exactly what I am talking about; this is an interesting conversation. Is there something this poster said that you find factually wrong?
"My point is that if only old, rich men had to fight -- war would become as dead as the dodo in a heartbeat.
Again:
I hate those men who would send into war youth to fight and die for them; the pride and cowardice of those old men, making their wars that boys must die."
~Mary Roberts Rinehart
"My point is that if only old, rich men had to fight -- war would become as dead as the dodo in a heartbeat.
Again:
I hate those men who would send into war youth to fight and die for them; the pride and cowardice of those old men, making their wars that boys must die."
~Mary Roberts Rinehart
Epicurus
Reasonable
I did not mean to insinuate that Democratic Congressional leaders other than Rangel came out in support of the bill, but I am extremely uncomfortable with the level of support for the draft that suddenly appeared with the liberals on FP.com. For a brief moment Republicans and Democrats alike agreed on the need to go send unwilling young people off to die while Libertarians were left scratching their heads. It was extremely creepy and I've been wary of those who jumped on board ever since.
It seems like it was only yesterday when Democrats were trying to scare us that Bush would reinstitute the draft, only to now have one of their own propse it.
Epicurus
Reasonable
I agree, but I don't see how sending more young people to die for policy and political statements rectifies the situation. Look for the thread where Desh and Sao try to justify it as a "political statement" to Bush. A "political statement" to Bush would be to cut of war funds you insincere assholes, not send a bunch of young people who were probably opposed to the war anyway to go die in it.
A lot of people think a draft would immediately stop the war. Because NeoCon chickenhawks and college republicans wouldn't want to fight in their war.
I'm not saying its a realistic solution to stop the war. In fact, its a pretty dumb reason to stop the war. But, what Rangel wanted to do was have a floor debate in congress on the draft, to illuminate the disparity between those who serve, and those who don't. It was a legislative tool, to bring that debate into the public conciousness.
Epicurus
Reasonable
If you think that a draft would deter Bush from future wars then you could be convinced of anything. I understand the argument that Rangel was trying to shape the debate, but that is still terrible. What if the Republicans had joined in and it had passed? Party aside Cypress, how would you feel about that?
Epicurus
Reasonable
Man, I forgot about Saoirse. She was awesome.
When she's not defending involuntary conscription and forced service.
It gets very frustrating when you find a war to be so immoral and you look around you and see the middle class just oblivious. I was at an airshow at a beach and it was filled with suburban middle class families. And they had this bomber called the bone, and the announcer talked about it and about how many loads it could carry, and then how many mixed loads, which means nukes too. And he said "that's the sound of freedom folks" and people cheered. But, that's the last sound a lot of other children hear, and I wonder if they would be cheering if the bone dropped a few loads on their kids, right there on that beach, turning it into a horror.
because that's what war does. And I wonder how many in the middle class riding around in their big ass suv's with "support the troops" magnets on it (magnets, because a sticker will actually leave a mark), and don't give one damned thought to the troop who is struggling not to kill himself because he killed someone in Iraq and when he got home his wife couldn't live with who he was now, and he turned to the bottle, might all of a sudden give them a thought, when "the troops" were their very own susies and johnnies?
Would someone finally care? And that is the part that makes me want to see a draft because that's when I know they would finally care. When it was their own skin in the game.
But...in the end I come down on the side of no draft because I am aware of how many young kids would get killed to make my point. And I am not a "oh well, if you want to make an omelet you have to break a few eggs" type of person.
And even still...I see their point.
I don't want a draft. I honestly don't think Rangel did either. He wanted a debate, and used a legislative tool to force that debate.
Its an interesting theoretical argument to have: I think the Iraq war would end if jenna and barbara bush had to serve. But, in principle, drafts are uncool.
Epicurus
Reasonable
Yeah I thought that was a belief I shared with almost all liberals until that day. Seriously can you explain their bizarre behavior to me?
Epicurus
Reasonable
I agree that the hardships of war fall unevenly on the lower classes, but my solution is to end the hardship by ending the war, not redistributing the suffering so that it effects everyone.
Easy:
Anger. Wanting to stop bush's war. I don't think the vast majority of liberals want a draft. I'm sure even Rangel doesn't. But, sometimes its tempting to think how quickly this war would end if Bush's, Clintons, and Cheney's children had to pull foot patrol duty in Fallujah. And in angry moments, its easy to see why someone would want a draft, to end this war outright. Cause making the rich and chicken-hearted fight in it, might well end it almost immediately.
Epicurus
Reasonable
I agree though, the thought of seeing Bush's kids be forced to serve in Iraq like Bush forced so many others to do is somewhat satisfying. But I really do think that the draft is one of the most immoral powers a government can wield, so it's terrifying to see the supposedly pro peace party defending it, whether it is a debate-shaping stunt or a realistic proposal.
Rangel simply wanted it to come to a floor debate. He wanted to use it as a legislative tool to debate the contrast and unfairness of those who serve and those who don't.
When the republicans wouldn't let it come to the floor for debate, he voted against his own bill, because he didn't really want the draft. He wanted a debate on fairness.
Having that debate is valuable, I think. Actually implementing the draft would be cruel, as you say.
Warren, it is exactly because this war only effects a very small amount of people that it hasn't ended...that it was even started. That's a cold truth, but it is a truth.
And it angers people. It angered the anti-war left for a long time, and it now beginning to anger a lot of the troops, and, their families. And when people get angry they don't always stop and react rationally.
Now, I didn't know you were as young as 19, or maybe you are 20 now? I knew you were young, but not how young. Believe me, I don't want to send you to war, or any of your friends to war. I don't believe a draft is the right answer, even if I believe it might possibly be an effective tactic. What is effective is not always right. And I think that the majority who have talked about it would come down exactly that way, in the end. But even if the majority did want it, I would not support a draft. That's all I can really say about it.
Epicurus
Reasonable
That is a very intellectually honest and consistent post Darla. I agree 100%.
And yeah I'm pretty young. 20 in March. We were having that debate on FP.com right when lots of my friends were finishing up their basic and getting their deployments, so it was particularly sensitive for me.
It's not just Bush's kids, it's the kids of all of the right wing bastards who enabled this frigging war, and then to top that off, called people who were against it "cowards" and traitors. As if it takes more courgage to type "Yay war!" from your living room, than it takes to type "No war" from your living room. But the worst is being called a traitor. And sometimes you can get angry enough where you think that their children should be taken from their comfortable little bedrooms and slapped down in Iraq, and how do you like it now?
But again, that is emotion. It is fleeting in most cases. I would not punish the child of a moron, just because of who their parents were for one thing. Though, if I could figure out a way to draft only College Republicans, all of whom seem to have the most amusing reasons for not going to Iraq (I have seen them interviewed at their meetings), I would do that.