I ask AGAIN, what system are you talking about? They already existed in a system of the decentralized power of nation-states. They became founders because they recognized the need for a more centralized government and laid they framework and foundation for that with the Constituition.
The federal republic that they put into place is what they founded. It is what he speaks of a return to rather than the far more centralized system of today.
It is disingenuous to pretend that the founders of the nation supported the ruin of the same just so you can ignore that portion of what he stated and then say, "He wants to get rid of the US government!" Rubbish! He argues for decentralization, not the destruction of the government.
Post where I said "he wants to cancel the United States." Strawman my ass, this is disingenuous argument. You altered what I said because it's easier for you to create an argument from there, not from what I actually said.
Oh come on! This is word for word a post from above:
"However, he has argued for the dissolution of the United States"
He has not. That is by far your most disingenuous exaggeration in the thread. A return to the system created by the founders is NOT the dissolution of the US!
Are you having difficulty in responding to the words I actually say, rather than your re-invention? I respond to what you and Paul have actually said and often quote the exact words.
And SO DO I!
I said that Paul wants to break America up into smaller nation-states. Paul SAID he wants to break up "the United States into smaller government units".
This is again exaggeration, he gives, in your own quote, examples of other nations that are also building smaller bureaucracies at local levels as an explanation. Name one nation that actually dissolved their national government while building these smaller bureaucracies and I'll agree in your exaggerated position, otherwise it is disingenuous exaggeration that ignores a portion of the actual quote and pretends to a point that was not there.
Quite a deliberate taking of the quote out of context. I simply take the quotes you post and place them back in context. The EXACT same quote has information in it that places it in a different context than what you attempt to make it fit in.
So long as you are not pretending that returning to what the founders built is the same thing as dissolving the US, as you tried above, then I don't care about honest criticism of anybody at all. So long as you can take an equal and opposite argument.Would the argument of why decentralized (nation-state) government won't work also be inappropriate as a critcism of what Paul said? I have no problem arguing this against what you're saying Paul proposes.
Explain what the founders set up in your view. Centralized government appears to be exactly what the founders set up from my perspective and time has taught us that states are not equal.
The Founders set up centralized power for the common defense, the preservation of public peace against internal convulsions as external attacks, the regulation of commerce with other nations and between states, and the common interaction, political and commercial, with foreign countries.
Yet they limited it with Amendment 10 and others that many wish to ignore nowadays. Decentralizing much of the federal government certainly wouldn't be against what they built.
His highly illogical use of "There's no Cold War and no Communist threat" so we don't need the federal government is stupid as hell. Neither the federal government or centralized were formed to simply address the Cold War or a communist threat. You're dancing around the issue.
The founders spoke against a standing army, and other forms of over-federalization preferring to give more strength to the states rather than the centralized government. You are pretending that the founders wanted some strong central government that is put to lie by their own writings, some of them did, but thankfully they lost to Jefferson and others who preferred the states to have the stronger position, otherwise we would be even further along towards big brother already.
Is the man too stupid to know how to put english words together that accurately reflect his thoughts? .. "Why do we need the federal government? There's no Cold War and no Communist threat. Many other nations are breaking into smaller and smaller pieces. The centralization of power in Washington occurred in a different time. Why not think about getting rid of the federal government, returning to the system of our Founders, and breaking up the United States into smaller government units?" .. Is a long way from your reinterpretation. Perhaps you should be his speech writer.
Or we can actually look at what "returning to the system of our Founders" is considering the built this nation it certainly doesn't mean "Let's dissolve the United States!" Only somebody ignoring part of what was stated in order to make an exaggeration of his point into something ridiculous (in other words, taking it out of its own context and pretending parts of it don't exist and making a totally disingenuous argument of strawmen out of it) could possibly believe that he meant we should "dissolve the United States" as you posted above.
But even your reinterpretation should be challenged in my opinion.
Post where I said this or stop lying saying that I did.
I will add the link as soon as I am done with the appropriate sentence in bold so that you can stop being so "insulted".
And I ask again, is Ron Paul the only authority on when a "different time" is applicable to the argument. The reason states are regulated is because in THIS TIME in our history time has taught us that all states are not equal, but the American people should be. Thus, federal guidelines, restrictions, funding, and oversight has developed over time to accomodate the needs of modern society.
If I thought that I would simply link you up to his site rather than bother answering your posts and why I think they are wrong with my own opinion. So why don't you stop asking the question as I have already answered it twice in the negative.
I have no problem moving this conversation to what's wrong with his "smaller government" notion. I have no problem discussing why getting rid of the Department of Education and creating an "unsupervised educational free-for-all among all the states and thousands of countless districts", is a dumb idea.
What you and most Paul supporters do without shame my brother is run from the words of the person you support. Whether that comes from blind loyalty or just ignorance of history makes no difference.
Rubbish, what I do is point out the words that you attempt to ignore in your desperate attempt to make him "evil" in your eyes. Even to the point of pretending that 'returning to the plan of our Founders' means "dissolve the United States".
I am suggesting that this is one of the things I disagree with him on, as I stated several times that I wasn't arguing his religious position it is simply an attempt to build another strawman making "assertions" for me and pretending I haven't already stated, "I am not arguing his religious position, I am simply stating that more libertarians associate with Jefferson than with Paine in every circle I have ever run in." or something much like that before now."The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance."
Are you suggesting that you didn't already know this was a lie? You didn't know that most of the Founders weren't christians? They were Deists who didn't believe in the bible and thought Jesus was a good man but certainly not divine or the son of God. What Paul says here is remarkably dumb and devoid of any historical perspective. I would not imagine someone as informed as you not to know this.
Would you have believed or defended that bullshit if Jerry Falwell had said it?
I don't believe or defend it now, that is why this is a strawman argument.
WHAT? You believe the the US was founded on christianity?
Does this help ...
From the 1796 treaty with Tripoli, which states that the United States was "in no sense founded on the Christian religion" . This was not an idle statement meant to satisfy muslims, they believed it and meant it. This treaty was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under the presidency of John Adams.
Same treaty translated into spanish states that it is an agreement between "Christian Nations", also this treaty was repealed three years afterward and only agreed to because hostages were being held. This treaty is NOT a good argument for your case.
In the original version that was written the words didn't even exist, it was only in the finalized version that was sent out after the vote that the words were added in the English version. Amazingly the Arabic version didn't have the SAME WORDS in it.
HOWEVER, I am not arguing that it is a Christian Nation, only that they did not argue to exclude religion from public life.
You may not have suggested it BUT IT IS EXACTLY WHAT PAUL SAID. " .. with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance."
Your "strawman" is a dodge from dealing with his lunatic ramblings.
It is not a strawman to suggest disagreement with Paul on this particular area yet give an even different opinion of my own. It IS a strawman to pretend that such an opinion is in support of R. Paul's position.
I ask again, where is religion forbidden from public life? Are you saying that you do not know that Jefferson was FOR forbidding religion from government .. which is the question that you keep dodging by talking about "public life". Where did I say religion shouldn't be part of public life?
I am saying that he believes that it is the direction that the nation is running and is why he makes that argument.
Funny, because I never said that either.
Read this closely .. Not only do I not believe in religion in government, neither did Jefferson, whom you claim an affinity with. What I said in simplistic terms is that Jefferson didn't believe in religion in government, but you disagree with that or merely feel compelled to defend Paul.
There you go again.
Except I don't.
Read this slowly .. But I cannot think of a worse candidate for president than someone so completely removed from reality and so compltely devoid of any sense of socio-ethical responsibility as Ron Paul. In simple terms, in my opinion Ron Paul is every bit the kook many people think him to be. He's not connected the this century and his flaws and faults go way beyond the issue of centralized government.
And I read it.
And finally, here is the link to your assertion that R. Paul wants to "dissolve the US".
http://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?p=125181#post125181
And as I stated I would BOLD the sentence that you can't seem to remember typing:
However, he has argued for the dissolution of the United States, which is odd to say the least for someone so wed to the Constitution. He believes there is no need for the Federal government at all and America should be reduced to a bunch of nation-states. .. which lends people to believe he's crazy.
Note, that it is fully in context and could not otherwise be interpreted, nor does it have any additional information that would make it mean anything other than you posted that R. Paul wants to "dissolve the United States".