APP - Spanking children

Mott the Hoople said:
Let's be clear here. Were not discussing "Discipline in Schools". Discipline in schools is a very good thing and there are many more affective ways to discipline students then corporal punishment.
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In general terminology, educators tend to refer to discipline as a component of classroom management, and it simply means order and a disciplined environment. Usually punishment is the word used to refer to what your speaking of, such as corporal punishment. Parents may be punishing their children intermittently, but they are certainly not disciplining them.
 
It is up to the parents to prepare their children for school. Using the tv as a babysitter and ignoring them is part of what produces the problems.

As for discipline at school, there are much more effective ways of doing that than spanking. While spanking provides instant punishment, it does not address any of the problems the child may be having and contributes nothing to the child's education.

Additional instruction, additional work, and other methods are much more effective at removing bad behavior.

There is also the negative of making the "tough kid" look cool for taking the spanking and not getting with the program.
 
WinterBorn said:
I think spanking is an effective means of disciplining children. But within the home, not in school.

I don't think spanking is valuable in a school setting, as there are other more effective means.

I also think the problems we are seeing in schools are not a reflection of the change in methods of punishment in schools, as much as it is a complete lack of responsibility by the parents who should be raising their kids better.
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My sentiments exactly. I have one child, Erika, who was 5 last time I looked and suddenly is 27 and in grad school at the University of British Columbia, working on her Masters in Library Science. Where the hell did her childhood go? I firmly believe in spanking in the home, but paddling kids in school? No way. Hit my kid with a fucking board? I don't think so. That vice principal is going to look real funny walking down the hall with the handle of his paddle sticking out of his ass. You don't hit a kid with a blunt object. My theory is this: spanking is to be ued for a very limited set of circumstances, mostly in the early verbalization stage of active toddlers, whether speed crawlers or walkers, to be administered only with the open hand on the ass, and twice, not painfully hard, but mean it (the first swat gets their attention, and the second is the punishment, any more than that is for you, and that's sadistic. And the advice you hear that you should never strike a child in anger? Bullshit! That's the ONLY time you spank them! Doing it when you're calm is a cold-blooded beating, and worst of all, serves no purpose. The kid has already forgotten the incident. All he knows is his dad is beating him for no apparent reason, and with no emotion in his face. Creepy.

No, the punishment is immediate, while you're mad, two firm swats. Instant reinforcement, immediately after the transgression, which is still fresh in their memory, efore that toddler attention span deletes it, and so they can see that you're upset. The connection between crime and punishment is made, along with a two year old's version of, "Holee shit! Dad is pissed to the max. Note to self: don't do tyhat again!" Big eyes. Shock and awe. Erika only needed to get spanked once in her life. She didn't cry (too shocked), but she got the message. Besides, 90% of crying is bullshit anyway. You can hear the little bastards shift gears from real hurt to Making A Scene. Come to think of it, that's the one time when a blunt object can be used. A 2x4. To the head. By a non-family member.

Seriously, spanking should be reserved for ignoring the most basic commands: STOP and NO. Those are non-negotiable commands, because when a two year old is about to run into the street in front of a truck, you don't have time to explain quietly and gently rthe physics of baby meets two tons of steel. When you yell, "JOHNNY, STOP!" Johnny better stop dead in his tracks. If he doesn't, when you catch up to him, it's two immediate swats on the ass while you're mad, and he can see that you're mad.

When your adrenalin rush has subsided and you calm down, you explain to him about baby and truck, and how stop is always to be obeyed without question or hesitation. I'd rather have a temporarily traumatized kid than a permanently dead one. And once you have your kid on voice command, the rest is gravy.
 
WinterBorn said:
It is up to the parents to prepare their children for school. Using the tv as a babysitter and ignoring them is part of what produces the problems.

As for discipline at school, there are much more effective ways of doing that than spanking. While spanking provides instant punishment, it does not address any of the problems the child may be having and contributes nothing to the child's education.

Additional instruction, additional work, and other methods are much more effective at removing bad behavior.

There is also the negative of making the "tough kid" look cool for taking the spanking and not getting with the program.
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Yes, I'm a supporter of using extra work to motivate kids. Make them do extra assignments, followed by extra graded courses (special civics courses, etc.), followed by summer school. If the kids refuse to play ball, then their grades suffer horribly, and unless they truly do not care, you will start to teach them some discipline, which will lead to greater lessons for life.

Unfortunately, we usually don't get much past extra graded work, which is usually not very motivating.
 
SSgt said:
Yes, I'm a supporter of using extra work to motivate kids. Make them do extra assignments, followed by extra graded courses (special civics courses, etc.), followed by summer school. If the kids refuse to play ball, then their grades suffer horribly, and unless they truly do not care, you will start to teach them some discipline, which will lead to greater lessons for life.

Unfortunately, we usually don't get much past extra graded work, which is usually not very motivating.
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But there is certainly more to be gained by extra graded work than by a spanking. At least there is some academic merit to the work.
 
WinterBorn said:
But there is certainly more to be gained by extra graded work than by a spanking. At least there is some academic merit to the work.
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Its hard to say. Some teachers are really good at planning out these assignments in advance, while others simply give out busywork on the fly. Sometimes the busywork comes from chapters that the class never covered, due to time constraints, and so it can be beneficial. At least with the more serious cases, such as extra classes, those are obviously not going to suffer from poor planning, depending on how academically sound they are to begin with.
 
zoombwaz said:
My sentiments exactly. I have one child, Erika, who was 5 last time I looked and suddenly is 27 and in grad school at the University of British Columbia, working on her Masters in Library Science. Where the hell did her childhood go? I firmly believe in spanking in the home, but paddling kids in school? No way. Hit my kid with a fucking board? I don't think so. That vice principal is going to look real funny walking down the hall with the handle of his paddle sticking out of his ass. You don't hit a kid with a blunt object. My theory is this: spanking is to be ued for a very limited set of circumstances, mostly in the early verbalization stage of active toddlers, whether speed crawlers or walkers, to be administered only with the open hand on the ass, and twice, not painfully hard, but mean it (the first swat gets their attention, and the second is the punishment, any more than that is for you, and that's sadistic. And the advice you hear that you should never strike a child in anger? Bullshit! That's the ONLY time you spank them! Doing it when you're calm is a cold-blooded beating, and worst of all, serves no purpose. The kid has already forgotten the incident. All he knows is his dad is beating him for no apparent reason, and with no emotion in his face. Creepy.

No, the punishment is immediate, while you're mad, two firm swats. Instant reinforcement, immediately after the transgression, which is still fresh in their memory, efore that toddler attention span deletes it, and so they can see that you're upset. The connection between crime and punishment is made, along with a two year old's version of, "Holee shit! Dad is pissed to the max. Note to self: don't do tyhat again!" Big eyes. Shock and awe. Erika only needed to get spanked once in her life. She didn't cry (too shocked), but she got the message. Besides, 90% of crying is bullshit anyway. You can hear the little bastards shift gears from real hurt to Making A Scene. Come to think of it, that's the one time when a blunt object can be used. A 2x4. To the head. By a non-family member.

Seriously, spanking should be reserved for ignoring the most basic commands: STOP and NO. Those are non-negotiable commands, because when a two year old is about to run into the street in front of a truck, you don't have time to explain quietly and gently rthe physics of baby meets two tons of steel. When you yell, "JOHNNY, STOP!" Johnny better stop dead in his tracks. If he doesn't, when you catch up to him, it's two immediate swats on the ass while you're mad, and he can see that you're mad.

When your adrenalin rush has subsided and you calm down, you explain to him about baby and truck, and how stop is always to be obeyed without question or hesitation. I'd rather have a temporarily traumatized kid than a permanently dead one. And once you have your kid on voice command, the rest is gravy.
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Most the people that I know, of the same age, relate to the adage of:
Before we learned to love out parents, we learned to fear them.

The fear is what kept us from earning a Darwin Award.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
That's an excuse. If the parents won't discipline their children and the children are disrupting the class room then you can simply remove the children from the class room and notify the parents that if they don't discipline their children then there will be legal consequences for the parents.
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In a public school? Yeah, and theoretically you can remove a tenured teacher.
 
SSgt said:
Here's a question I will pose. Does unruly students in modern schools result from lack of parenting at home or lack of discipline in schools? By this I mean, could parents apply strong discipline at home including corporal punishment, but by having schools operate as they do now, behavior would remain the same in schools?

Personally, I would not advocate going back to the old ways in the schools, and I do blame lack of parenting for modern problems of behavior in schools.
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Lack of parenting clearly. Many times when I have been faced with an unruly child and talked to the parents, they find every excuse in the world why Johnie is not at fault.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
Most the people that I know, of the same age, relate to the adage of:
Before we learned to love out parents, we learned to fear them.

The fear is what kept us from earning a Darwin Award.
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Exactly. When my dad yelled "STOP!" I stopped on a dime and gave change. No argument, no "WHY?", because I knew: non-negotiable command. Stop first, and ask why later (didn't need to ask why on one occasion, because the answer presented itself in the form of a truck. (more instant reinforcement).

I had the immense displeasure recently of taking a 4 hour Amtrak trip with not one, not two, but three misbehaving children: loud, whiny, fake crying, refusing to stay in their seats. All three mothers were pleading repeatedly with their spawn to "please behave."

Please behave?? WTF? Since when is behave preceded by please more than once? Future Darwin winners, for sure.
 
Southern Man said:
In a public school? Yeah, and theoretically you can remove a tenured teacher.
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In a public school setting, spanking is a lousy method of discipline. Removal of the child (if truly uncontrollable) is a much better answer.
 
In ninth grade a guy behind me pushed my head into the water fountain, splitting my lip. When I asked him WTF he just laughed and pushed me. We tussled. We got sent to the vice principals office and the vice principal said we were BOTH getting a swat. I was defending myself and was not going to take the swat until he called my Dad who asked him if I had started it. When the vice principal told him that didn't matter my Dad told him he could not swat me and that was that. In the end, because my father was adamant about my not getting a swat neither of us did. THis is the problem with schools administering physical punishment. They either do it without regard to assessing blame or they don't do it at all. School's not a good place for adults to be involved in physical punishment.

Had I been the one that started the fight, the school could not have punished me like my father would have. I would have preferred the swat to the punishment at home which would NOT have been corporal, but nonetheless unpleasant.
 
Socrtease said:
In ninth grade a guy behind me pushed my head into the water fountain, splitting my lip. When I asked him WTF he just laughed and pushed me. We tussled. We got sent to the vice principals office and the vice principal said we were BOTH getting a swat. I was defending myself and was not going to take the swat until he called my Dad who asked him if I had started it. When the vice principal told him that didn't matter my Dad told him he could not swat me and that was that. In the end, because my father was adamant about my not getting a swat neither of us did. THis is the problem with schools administering physical punishment. They either do it without regard to assessing blame or they don't do it at all. School's not a good place for adults to be involved in physical punishment.

Had I been the one that started the fight, the school could not have punished me like my father would have. I would have preferred the swat to the punishment at home which would NOT have been corporal, but nonetheless unpleasant.
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Your complaint is about being wrongly convicted, not swatting. If justice had been served correctly you'd have been fine with that kid getting his clock cleaned by the VP.
 
Southern Man said:
Your complaint is about being wrongly convicted, not swatting. If justice had been served correctly you'd have been fine with that kid getting his clock cleaned by the VP.
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SM, you said yourself that spankings were appropriate for kids from 2 to 8. School is for kids from 5 or 6 to 18. The disciplinary problems we are having will not be solved by spankings in the first 3 years. Or at least we have to find better solutions for at least 9 out of 12 years.
 
I don't spank my children, some of it was because the cycle of physical abuse in my family had to end, but it is mostly because in reality with my kids there is better leverage in taking away privileges.
 
WinterBorn said:
It is up to the parents to prepare their children for school. Using the tv as a babysitter and ignoring them is part of what produces the problems.

As for discipline at school, there are much more effective ways of doing that than spanking. While spanking provides instant punishment, it does not address any of the problems the child may be having and contributes nothing to the child's education.

Additional instruction, additional work, and other methods are much more effective at removing bad behavior.

There is also the negative of making the "tough kid" look cool for taking the spanking and not getting with the program.
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I find the above interesting. When I was a kid, the paddle WAS an effective means of discipline. Especially when the 'tough kid' came back from the principal's office with tears in his eyes and very eager to remain standing in class.

I would be curious to know the other methods you mention. Because discipline in our schools today seems to be lacking.
 
Superfreak said:
I find the above interesting. When I was a kid, the paddle WAS an effective means of discipline. Especially when the 'tough kid' came back from the principal's office with tears in his eyes and very eager to remain standing in class.

I would be curious to know the other methods you mention. Because discipline in our schools today seems to be lacking.
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That's largely because the lawsuits are not lacking.
 
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